Adhesion Issues

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maxamillo
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Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:32 pm

Hey all!

So, I'm starting to dial in the settings on the n2+ I'm working with. However, I'm still having one issue. When printing a basic cube (4"x4"x4"), the printer lays the skit and the perimeter down without a hitch. Then, it runs the first diagonal across. No problem. Its the second and third pass that issues start. That middle section starts to "bacon," and get all wavy. Seems to be an adhesion issue. I thought it was the temperature, so I decreased it. It helped a little. So, I decreased it more (PLA @ 200). And everything failed.

The TLDR: skirt and perimeter have great adhesion. Middle doesn't.

Any thoughts?

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jmp
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby jmp » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:40 pm

A picture of what you are seeing would be very helpful for us in trouble shooting. I sometimes see this when I am over extruding or have the bed to close to the nozzle for the first layer (the plastic has no where to go so it pushes up the plastic laid down next to it causing the waves).
RL Name: Jason Preuss Thingiverse: JMP Youtube:http://youtube.com/c/patterntoprint Website: http://www.patterntoprint.com

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:47 pm

jmp wrote:A picture of what you are seeing would be very helpful for us in trouble shooting. I sometimes see this when I am over extruding or have the bed to close to the nozzle for the first layer (the plastic has no where to go so it pushes up the plastic laid down next to it causing the waves).


Below is the photo. I am now printing at 210 (with the Raise Premium PLA), and the bed set to 65. This photo is after some heavy tweaking, and it looks a lot better than yesterday. Still very bumpy though, and you can see remnants of old prints. I'm new to 3D printing, so this might just be how the first layer always looks?
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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:04 pm

It looks like you are a little to close to the bed.

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:20 pm

Noren wrote:It looks like you are a little to close to the bed.


Interesting. I'll adjust the thumb screw a little. Thanks!

Squenz
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Squenz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:33 pm

I think you're a bit too close to the bed plus you're overextruding maybe 4 percent or so.

Even if you already have the standard profile for R3D PLA, you have to measure the actual filament diameter, enter it in the filament settings and then print a X20xY20xZ20 single wall (=vase mode) and check the thickness of the wall with a caliper against the chosen extrusion width in the slicing settings.

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:59 pm

Squenz wrote:I think you're a bit too close to the bed plus you're overextruding maybe 4 percent or so.

Even if you already have the standard profile for R3D PLA, you have to measure the actual filament diameter, enter it in the filament settings and then print a X20xY20xZ20 single wall (=vase mode) and check the thickness of the wall with a caliper against the chosen extrusion width in the slicing settings.


If I was over extruding, wouldn't there be issues throughout the print? The rest of the print is turning out fine. It's just the first layer that's "ugly."

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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:00 pm

What build surface do you print on?

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Noren wrote:What build surface do you print on?


The glass plate+buildtak that comes with the printer. No glue, hairspray, or anything. Just right on.

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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 pm

maxamillo wrote:
Noren wrote:What build surface do you print on?


The glass plate+buildtak that comes with the printer. No glue, hairspray, or anything. Just right on.


Ok. When I used buildtak I cleaned it regularly with isopropylalcohol. That ensures good grip and removes any residues from previous prints. But you can also print on a raft. That way the small errors are “fixed” during the printing of the raft. And the first layer of the actual objects gets better.

Squenz
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Squenz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 pm

maxamillo wrote:.... I'm new to 3D printing...


maxamillo wrote:If I was over extruding, wouldn't there be issues throughout the print? The rest of the print is turning out fine. It's just the first layer that's "ugly."


Well, excuse me, but if you're new to this small part of the world, how do you judge "is turning out fine" ?


Are you seeing "fine" just from a "looks fine" point of view or are checking things for it's size with a caliper ?

A little bit of overextrusion looks good, but it won't hold with measurements, comes out too large.

If your prints not only look good, but also are at least in the ball park when measuring, there just might be a wrong setting in the slicer in regards of overextrusion or filament diameter, or whatever other parameters are involved with extrusion volume.

I know, things should come well calibrated from the factory, but we've seen horses near the pharmacy, some even in front, if you get my drift.

There's next to nothing else than check all the basics before chasing ghosts. Steps per unit, bed height, bed level adjustment, filament diameter need to be checked and adjusted if no good, the filament flow rate calibration has to be done. Then you're good to go and you have a very good level of certainity. The icing on the cake is, you get to know your machine, learn things which will make things much more logic and easier for you in the long run.

If you start to print without these parameters put to facts, you'll most likely run into problems rather sooner than later. You'll work around these problems with trial-and-error and probably end up with a so-so result, but not happy.
Next new thing will give you another problem and you still won't be able to counteract because you're actually in the guess instead of in the know. In the end, you'll constantly be more or less unhappy, over and over again, and waste a lot of time and material on problems which probably even wouldn't exist if you had checked and adjusted the basics right of the bat.

So, invest an hour of your lifetime up front and spare yourself dozens of hours of frustation, a lot of wasted filament and a whole lot of less than good prints.

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:03 pm

Squenz wrote:
maxamillo wrote:.... I'm new to 3D printing...


maxamillo wrote:If I was over extruding, wouldn't there be issues throughout the print? The rest of the print is turning out fine. It's just the first layer that's "ugly."


Well, excuse me, but if you're new to this small part of the world, how do you judge "is turning out fine" ?


Are you seeing "fine" just from a "looks fine" point of view or are checking things for it's size with a caliper ?

A little bit of overextrusion looks good, but it won't hold with measurements, comes out too large.

If your prints not only look good, but also are at least in the ball park when measuring, there just might be a wrong setting in the slicer in regards of overextrusion or filament diameter, or whatever other parameters are involved with extrusion volume.

I know, things should come well calibrated from the factory, but we've seen horses near the pharmacy, some even in front, if you get my drift.

There's next to nothing else than check all the basics before chasing ghosts. Steps per unit, bed height, bed level adjustment, filament diameter need to be checked and adjusted if no good, the filament flow rate calibration has to be done. Then you're good to go and you have a very good level of certainity. The icing on the cake is, you get to know your machine, learn things which will make things much more logic and easier for you in the long run.

If you start to print without these parameters put to facts, you'll most likely run into problems rather sooner than later. You'll work around these problems with trial-and-error and probably end up with a so-so result, but not happy.
Next new thing will give you another problem and you still won't be able to counteract because you're actually in the guess instead of in the know. In the end, you'll constantly be more or less unhappy, over and over again, and waste a lot of time and material on problems which probably even wouldn't exist if you had checked and adjusted the basics right of the bat.

So, invest an hour of your lifetime up front and spare yourself dozens of hours of frustation, a lot of wasted filament and a whole lot of less than good prints.



Thanks for the tips! I've adjusted the Z offset, and that seemed to do the trick (or at least help). Part of the problem with the nozzle being too close was that when it was starting those diagonal passes, half of the point of contact was being blocked by the previous layer, and the other half was getting over-extruded, since the other half was blocked. That was causing the bumpiness.

I prefer to test one thing at a time though. One the first layer gets down without issues, then I'll address the over-extrusion issue.

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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:07 pm

Yes. When the bed is uneven and to close you get pressure build up in the nozzle. And you get that wavy uneven extrusion.

maxamillo
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby maxamillo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:12 pm

Noren wrote:Yes. When the bed is uneven and to close you get pressure build up in the nozzle. And you get that wavy uneven extrusion.


Adjusting the Z definitely helped. It made one end of the print perfect. No bumps or anything. But, further away from that end, more bumps. Not nearly as many as before, but still some. Which leads me to believe that in addition to the nozzle being too close (and a potential over-extrusion issue), the bed isn't level.

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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:15 pm

Yup. That sounds like an uneven bed.

Squenz
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Squenz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 pm

maxamillo wrote:
I prefer to test one thing at a time though. One the first layer gets down without issues, then I'll address the over-extrusion issue.


Well, that's what i meant ...

Steps per unit, bed height, bed level adjustment, filament diameter need to be checked and adjusted if no good, the filament flow rate calibration has to be done.

THEN you're good to go and print on without any over- or underextrusion, without "adressing" ... just printing

Regatta
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Regatta » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:32 am

i think i may be having a similar issue, i didnt want to start a new thread if its the same solution.. i apologize if i'm thread-jacking a little bit here!

Layer 3:

Image

Layer 4 (layer 1 of the model):

Image

soon after this, the nozzle knocked the part loose on the build plate..
its my first day 3D printing, i've changed the temp between 205 and 235, heatbed at 0 and 50 degrees, flow rate at 94% - 100%..
nothing seems to change it in the tuning menu.. i will try to change the first layer offset, as the OP mentioned

my first test print did this too, but finished up without any readily-apparent aesthetic issues

thank you for any help!

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Noren
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Noren » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:59 pm

Regatta wrote:thank you for any help!


Too close to bed. Pressure builds up in the nozzle and squirts out eneven. And you will get to much plastic in some places as your nozzle will hit. That and probably an uneven bed.

Regatta
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Re: Adhesion Issues

Postby Regatta » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:10 am

Noren wrote:
Regatta wrote:thank you for any help!


Too close to bed. Pressure builds up in the nozzle and squirts out eneven. And you will get to much plastic in some places as your nozzle will hit. That and probably an uneven bed.


ill check in that out, i guess i hadn't used the "PLA V2 HOT END" profile, i had used the old profile. i'm only a few layers into this print, so far it seems like that has made a huge difference, way better!


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