Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Jordan12345
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Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:39 am

Hi,

So when a print is started, the target temperatures of both the extruders and the board flashes up as normal. Board temperature starts to increase but both extruders temperature sensors read a temperature of 10C and remain cold. 10 seconds later the target temp of both left extruder and board drop to zero, and right extruder target remains (See attached picture). This is remains continuously and "Print" cant be paused or stopped so has to be switched off to stop.

Also am no longer able to use the controls to move in x,y or z directions.

I have gone through every single connection to confirm everything is plugged in properly with no success.

At one point I have received the "Board Error: Temperature sensor issue" error but haven't be able to bring it up again for a picture. (It also seems to be a different issue).

Thanks in advance for any help you can give,
Jordan
Attachments
20200309_091943[1].jpg

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:30 am

Would you like to check the version of RaiseTouch firmware and Motion Board firmware? If they are not the latest versions in our download center.
If not, please update both firmwares and try recreate the issue. Once it shows the issue again, please export the serial log and share with us.

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:08 am

The Motion Board firmware was up to date and I have updated the RaiseTouch firmware but there has been no change.
I have managed to recreate the error serial log attached.
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all-raisetouch-1099-20200310120947.tar.gz
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:19 am

Would you like to take some pictures around your extruder board so that I can check whether there is any abnromal on it?

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:36 am

Hi Vicky,

Please find photos of the extruder board and main board.
Attachments
20200312_082845.jpg
20200312_082836.jpg
20200312_082810.jpg

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:18 am

Thanks for your pictures. All the cables look fine in your picture, doesn't look like there is any short or loose connection.
The issue will be highly likely on the 3-pin nozzle heating power cable otherwise the motion board's output because from serial log, your nozzle temperature didn't really heat up over time.
Please contact where you get the printer from and ask for further support and spare parts.

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:01 pm

Not only does the nozzle not heat up but the temperature sensor also continually says the temperature is 10C (which i assume is the zero) so is the sensor broken also. Or is there something that could effect both of these systems simultaneously.

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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:58 am

Would you like to take the hotend cover off and try heat the hotend slightly up with a lighter or heat gun and see how temperature changes?

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Wed May 06, 2020 7:12 am

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply, using a heat gun the temperature still does not change.

Regards,
Jordan

Jetguy
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jetguy » Wed May 06, 2020 2:51 pm

Sorry in advance, I'm not trying to give you my frustration, just that how many of the exact same topic are we going to have?

In order to best help you, probably you should read the other replies I've given on the topic at hand.
https://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php ... 373#p53727

Beyond that, let's do some real testing.
I know you tried and the heat gun was a good idea.
The issue is, you got a failed result, but it's interpreting the result where we can go wrong.
Second to this, Vicky, while well meaning, got the answer wrong. It is NOT the 3 wire cable.
So let's PROVE that by some more logical tests since there are PROPER ways of attempting to see what is good or bad.
Thermocouples are one of the simplest devices in and of themselves as a sensor. It is simple 2 very specially chosen metal wires, welded together at the sensing end, that produce a microvolt signal voltage that is proportional to the difference in temperature between the junction (welded tip) where the 2 different metals are connected, and then the cold junction is where the wires connect to the extruder head breakout and on that board, connect to the thermocouple amplifier.
So to test a thermocouple, we can do 2 things:
First, unhook the thermocouple from the extruder head breakout screw terminals. Then just measure the thermocouple for continuity. We cannot measure any other meaningful data with a typical multimeter other than just verify the thermocouple is not open circuit. Resistance will be extremely low and should not be measured, it's just 2 metal wires. It's not the resistance, it's the fact they are different metals and produce a voltage- something the typical meter simply cannot detect.
The OTHER side of the system we can check is the thermocouple amplifier. That's because without a thermocouple attached, they INSTANTLY go into error mode.
What I'm getting at, is, we know from your test, we cannot see a temperature report rise when the thermocouple was manually heated using a heatgun. You could jump to the very likely false conclusion the thermocouple as a sensor is bad. Given the construction of them and the fact they more often fail open circuit and the reading of 10C you got, no, probably not the thermocouple. Also, highly unlikely the thermocouple amplifier chip is bad. We would not get a 10C reading. What is extremely likely, is yet another multi wire cable, AKA "the ribbon cable" is broken, and not sending the analog voltage temperature signal to the motion board. And due to the motion board and some stray capacitance coupled with the high impedance of the processor analog to digital conversion pin, it sits there and reads a spurious non valid voltage that represents a temperature and it doesn't update real time.

So again, prove this by some real testing.
First do the thermocouple continuity test just for sanity.
Then power on the printer with no thermocouple connected. It should error out, but let's say it doesn't, then what temp is reported?
The point is, we knowingly create a real world possible fault condition (open circuit thermocouple disconnected) and should get the printer to throw a big warning on the LCD.
Let's say it doesn't do that, it never throws a warning. So you are kind of guessing, is it the thermocouple amp on the breakout PCB on the extruder head, or the motion board, or the cable connecting them. This is where it gets fun.
As I stated, if the amplifier was bad, it is HIGHLY unlikely it would report 10C, especially with no thermocouple attached. It should be throwing an error message out of range voltage to the motion board.
So test number 3, unplug that multiwire cable, AKA the ribbon cable, at the extruder breakout.
Now, we have no way of sending a voltage to the motion board. It should go into error mode.

Here's where interpreting the results is a big piece of the issue.
Supposedly, the motion board SHOULD be able to detect when the complete lack of any voltage coming from a disconnected extruder head breakout board is open circuit. However, multiple discussions have said Pro2 users can disconnect this cable and due to capacitance and the high impedance of the motion board input, it fails to recognize and keeps reporting the same temp.
And let's be honest- that's what your entire thread is saying right? The temperature is reporting a steady state temp that does not change.

Here is your first post:
So when a print is started, the target temperatures of both the extruders and the board flashes up as normal. Board temperature starts to increase but both extruders temperature sensors read a temperature of 10C and remain cold. 10 seconds later the target temp of both left extruder and board drop to zero, and right extruder target remains (See attached picture). This is remains continuously and "Print" cant be paused or stopped so has to be switched off to stop.

Also am no longer able to use the controls to move in x,y or z directions.


I can explain every part of this.
First you start a print. The first thing a print does is use a special command, heat and wait for it to reach temp BEFORE executing any further gcode commands. So when your temperature sending system (likely this ribbon cable) is preventing the thermcouple amplifier from sending an updated temperature reading voltage to the motion control board, the control board at first turns on the heater because you set a setpoint higher than the current (and invalid not realitime actual) temperature the controller thinks it is. So the heater, being on a separate 3 wire cable that is less prone to breaking allows the heater to try and heat up. But the firmware back at the motion board is also expecting as part of the safety code for the temperature to rise when the heater is on. The time period where the reported temperature is not rising but the heater is commanded on triggers safety code in the firmware to shut down the heater and prevent a thermal runaway. However, we have a conflict. Remember, we started a print and one of the SPECIAL commands is to set and WAIT for temp to be reached BEFORE executing any other line of gcode. This is why when you command and thus send more gcode commands from the touchscreen NOTHING happens!!! The motion board is in conflict. It cannot heat and has NOT yet reached the setpoint temp and we gave it a command to specifically not execute further gcode commands UNTIL that setpoint is reached.

And yes, the temp sensor error message did come up once. Again the issue is, due to the system construction and 2 boards and firmwares talking to each other with limited protocols, the error message is not detailed, it doesn't troubleshoot how or why it failed.
The reason why Raise 3D begs for these serial data logs, they are hoping to either catch that error message in the log however many times they decided it means a real fault exists, or they are looking for the condition where the temp reported does not change for multiple consecutive temperature reports over time. Neither of those is what I would consider obvious- they are the needle in haystack of a mountain of other lines of gcode and data in the serial log file.

Again, great, early on, you took pictures at both ends of this cable. The problem is, you likely cannot see the fault. Raise 3D doesn't give out all the info I've been sharing, and I'm under the impression they aren't super happy when I expose this. Tough cooky, this is about what is right you the owner the printer who paid several thousand dollars and should be able to fix and troubleshoot what amounts to a wire failing.

Jetguy
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jetguy » Wed May 06, 2020 3:12 pm

Also, looking at the pictures, I see that removing the thermocouple wires from the extruder breakout board is a challenge.
The board is recessed into that plastic housing, and as such, while you can use a jewelers screwdriver to unscrew the screw terminals and release the wires, they are jammed sideways against the wall of that box.
Also, caution, take some tape or some other method, be sure to mark the thermocuple wires for T0 and T1.
If you make a mistake reconnecting them, you can accidently cross wire the wrong temp sensor to the wrong input.
That is a bad mistake to make because the temp sensor is then not sensing the side that is heating and can lead to a thermal runaway- especially in the instance where you command both to heat at the same time. So they rise in temp do not trigger the safety code that would happen when the heater was on but the sensor stayed cold because the 2 heaters are heating the opposite temp sensor.
Best after reconnecting a thermocouple, to test only one at a time with a setpoint of like 50C. Then watch closely and if the temp doesn't rise or the temp rises on the non heating side, you cross wired.

Pro2 breakout board.jpg


Also, here is a picture of that board by itself. Oriented the same way as your picture, the thermocouple screw terminals are along the left edge.
Extruder-Connection-Board-50405008A02.jpg

Naser404
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Naser404 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:38 pm

Jetguy,
I have tried many times to ask for a fix and until today they released a new printer but have yet to come forth and mention the problems users are having with the Pro 2 printers and stand behind their product.

In fact they already released the new E2 printer so I'm sure support for the older Pro2's will have much less priority now.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 07, 2020 12:04 am

All of our products from the original N-series machine's to our new machines including Pro2 series have lifetime technical support gaurntee. If the machine is having major issues we would suggest you open up a support ticket and communicate directly with our support team.

Naser404
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Naser404 » Thu May 07, 2020 8:53 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:All of our products from the original N-series machine's to our new machines including Pro2 series have lifetime technical support gaurntee. If the machine is having major issues we would suggest you open up a support ticket and communicate directly with our support team.


Technical support yes, but the problem is not fixable, cant you see all the threads on the forum with people having the same issues over and over again, cant you also see people are coming out with modifications to fix the issues ? doesn't that mean there is a design flaw that need to be rectified, why don't talk about these problems instead of open ticked and get support when support help fix the problem temporary only and then it come back again if you print with PLA and other cable issues and thermal runaways too.

Markus64
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Markus64 » Thu May 07, 2020 9:39 pm

@Naser404: Complete agreement!

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Tue May 12, 2020 8:51 am

Hi Jetguy,
Thank you so much for your help, just gonna go through those tests now.
Also with the movement problems:
When the printer has just been turned on with no gcode running, using the "Utilities" page on the LCD, you're not able to move the board or the hot end in x, y, or z directions.

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Thu May 14, 2020 8:32 am

Thermocouple tests: - Both once unplugged had very low resistance.
- When turned on the LCD gave no error response but just read the temperature of each extruder as 162C (See pic 1 and 2)
Thermocouple 1 test (2).png
Thermocouple 2 test (2).png


We concluded that the Themocouples themselves were okay.

We then moved onto your ribbon test, again when removed the LCD produced no error messages. and both extruder "temperatures" were suddenly 106C (Pic 3)
Ribbon test2.png


From my understanding of what you've said it seems that it could be a problem with the ribbon so I will order one in.

Jetguy
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 15, 2020 1:14 am

Here's the deal, I would call neither test conclusive to what is faulted and keeping you from printing,
However- you should be screaming in the back of your head- how could I just do those 2 tests and not get an emergency shutdown error???!!!! :oops: :cry: :o

Basic logic- heater control works such that You set a temperature. If the reported temp is LESS than the commanded temperature, the heater is on right? On full blast if the difference is greater than 10C. If you know there is no temperature sensor connected- and yet the motionboard and firmware doesn't know that- That's the DEFINITION OF THERMAL RUNAWAY. The only chance in safety is the firmware not sensing an expected rise in temperature within a time period and THEN kicking in emergency safety code to shut down the heater. That's no way to operate a printer depending on one single last line of defense. Often, that safety code takes time to kick in, and under many circumstances, the heater being full on during this waiting for the safety code to kick in can be far too hot- cook filament in the hotend, melt nearby plastic ducts- or worse.

Remember, this is a multi cable system. The 3 wire cable to the breakout carries heater power and the return lines to control them from the motion board. The "ribbon" cable carries the temperature sensor data to the motion board for it to make the decision when and how much ON to turn the heater on. If the 3 wire heater cable breaks as Vicky suggested- then the heater just cannot heat. If the ribbon cable breaks- we have potential for an out of control heater. Under no circumstance should we be able to even turn on a heater if the ribbon cable is unplugged or broken. You JUST proved that condition can exist.

You couldn't pay me to have that printer in my house or business and turn it on again.

This should be the #1 red flagged hot topic of the day people.
Last edited by Jetguy on Fri May 15, 2020 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 15, 2020 1:26 am

Again on a safety level, there just are not words for what you just tested.

With no temperature sensor connected, and even major parts of the electronics unplugged critical to operation- the printer reported a "normal" temperature and specifically, a temperature that never set off any alarm for an out of range high or low expected temp. Even more insane, the system would allow a user turn a heater on- and again we KNOW, beyond a shadow of doubt, not just a thermocouple not connected, but also the thermocouple amplifier not even plugged in. You cannot "control" a heater if you don't know it's actual temperature.

Jordan12345
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Re: Temperature sensor issue AND Board will not raise or lower

Postby Jordan12345 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:36 am

The problem was that the heating rod's red protective sleeve was pulled back leaving bare wires out. When heating was attempted these bare wires would spark against the thermocouplers outer casing causing the 10A fuse on the motherboard to blow. I believe these red protective sleeves were pulled back at some point while taking the heating rod out.

Hope this helps anyone else


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