Failing PLA supports

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sirowe
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:21 pm

We recently purchased a Pro2 Plus and it works great for relatively simple forms and our architectural models. But when we try to do any complex forms which require supports, we keep having support failures. Particularly with helmets, where we have domed structures that require support.

We've tried to do a number of cosplay helmets from do3d. These are well tested models, and we're printing with a full raft. Yet every time, whatever orientation we use, the supports collapse. I've added some photos below to show this. We're running everything from IdeaMaker, using Raise3D's own brand of Premium PLA and the built-in settings for their PLA, so we thought it would work fairly seamlessly.

We've tried auto supports from the model window in IdeaMaker. After these failed we added our own additional supports to improve this. Rather than using the auto pillar supports we've also tried adding 'adaptive supports' from inside the edit template settings. Really grateful for any advice or comments on what might be causing this, and how best to set up supports in Ideamaker? Should we be using the template edit to do this, or adding them automatically/manually before slicing?
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IMG_6947.jpg
IMG_6946.jpg
Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.

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Steven@Raise3D
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Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:19 pm

sirowe wrote:We recently purchased a Pro2 Plus and it works great for relatively simple forms and our architectural models. But when we try to do any complex forms which require supports, we keep having support failures. Particularly with helmets, where we have domed structures that require support.

We've tried to do a number of cosplay helmets from do3d. These are well tested models, and we're printing with a full raft. Yet every time, whatever orientation we use, the supports collapse. I've added some photos below to show this. We're running everything from IdeaMaker, using Raise3D's own brand of Premium PLA and the built-in settings for their PLA, so we thought it would work fairly seamlessly.

We've tried auto supports from the model window in IdeaMaker. After these failed we added our own additional supports to improve this. Rather than using the auto pillar supports we've also tried adding 'adaptive supports' from inside the edit template settings. Really grateful for any advice or comments on what might be causing this, and how best to set up supports in Ideamaker? Should we be using the template edit to do this, or adding them automatically/manually before slicing?


Looking at the images that you provided it appears that there is some major deformation in the support structure leading me to believe that the print is getting too hot. Would you be able to provide me the Gcode file of this model that failed in the images? Also, are you printing with the top cover on or off?

sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:00 pm

Hi Steven, thanks for the reply. We printed some brackets that hold the lid about 20cm above the top for when we print PLA. But I've been printing without the lid recently, to make sure it stays cool.

The gcode is 80mb, which it won't let me upload here. How can I get these to you?
Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.

sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:16 pm

When we try to print the same files vertically, to minimise the supports, the early layers of the print always seem to fail or fall away from the supports. Maybe this is what's happening above as well, rather than the supports deforming under heat.

These images are a section of a vertical print of the same stl file, that I had to stop after less than an hour. The support structures seem to be printing fine (with a cylinder primitive used for some stability) but the bottom triangular portion of the actual print has already broken loose and fallen away. The print is symmetric and the same thing happened on the other side.
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IMG_6976.jpg
IMG_6978.jpg
Simon

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Steven@Raise3D
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Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:16 pm

sirowe wrote:Hi Steven, thanks for the reply. We printed some brackets that hold the lid about 20cm above the top for when we print PLA. But I've been printing without the lid recently, to make sure it stays cool.

The gcode is 80mb, which it won't let me upload here. How can I get these to you?


You can use a dropbox or google docs link to send larger files here.

sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:31 pm

Two g-codes are available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/KhH2rJ5Pdmom1T0g

The 'laying' code is the one I posted about initially. Super slow with a lot of wasted supports, failed about 50-70% of the way through.
The 'standing' code (which I've tried in many configurations) fails early on every time, with the initial pieces failing to hold in place among the supports.

Thanks,
Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.

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Steven@Raise3D
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:11 am

sirowe wrote:Two g-codes are available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/KhH2rJ5Pdmom1T0g

The 'laying' code is the one I posted about initially. Super slow with a lot of wasted supports, failed about 50-70% of the way through.
The 'standing' code (which I've tried in many configurations) fails early on every time, with the initial pieces failing to hold in place among the supports.

Thanks,


Thanks for providing those files. I think what would help these prints tremendously is a setting called Z-hop at retraction. This setting can be found under the extruder tab in the advanced settings of your template. I would recommend setting the value 0.05 above the layer height that you are currently printing at. So if you were printing at a 0.1mm layer height the Z-hop should be set at 0.15mm. This should help prevent the supports from getting knocked over during the print.

sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:02 pm

Thanks for your help Steven. We've managed to get a print out with no failures, using the z-hop setting and ensuring the unit is fully ventilated with no lid and the door open. The first few layers aren't totally aligned though and do still need some minor repair work.

I think the ventilation and z-hop deals with the collapsing support issue but it still seems to struggle holding the early layers in place when there's no direct contact with the raft and the whole piece is on supports. The print we've managed to get working had to be done on grid supports, which are dense and difficult to remove. We have a low-cost FDM printer (which doesn't give us anywhere near as good/consistent results generally) but it seems to be more comfortable with this form, using tree supports. I feel like the issue is slicer side and perhaps in our support settings...
Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.

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Steven@Raise3D
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:21 am

sirowe wrote:Thanks for your help Steven. We've managed to get a print out with no failures, using the z-hop setting and ensuring the unit is fully ventilated with no lid and the door open. The first few layers aren't totally aligned though and do still need some minor repair work.

I think the ventilation and z-hop deals with the collapsing support issue but it still seems to struggle holding the early layers in place when there's no direct contact with the raft and the whole piece is on supports. The print we've managed to get working had to be done on grid supports, which are dense and difficult to remove. We have a low-cost FDM printer (which doesn't give us anywhere near as good/consistent results generally) but it seems to be more comfortable with this form, using tree supports. I feel like the issue is slicer side and perhaps in our support settings...


This is most likely the issue. (See image) Even with Z-hop enabled there is a very small chance these supports would actually print correctly. They are just too thin and small for a 0.4mm nozzle to print. Do you have the .stl file for this particular model? I can set it up in a way that would work better for the support structure to succeed.
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sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:27 pm

Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.

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Steven@Raise3D
Posts: 196
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Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:03 pm

sirowe wrote:STL is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/7bF95KbW4AiNfkNL

Thanks



I would suggest printing the model in this orientation as it will ensure a much more solid support structure. It may take a little bit more time and use a little bit more material for supports but it will ensure a completed print.

https://we.tl/t-hEFTvvwCWL

Also, you can also decrease the amount of material used on support structures with settings like "adaptive support"

Figure 32 of this guide: https://support.raise3d.com/ideaMaker/5 ... 5-439.html

sirowe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Re: Failing PLA supports

Postby sirowe » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:11 pm

Thank you,
Simon

Pro2 Plus. Ideamaker. Mac OS.


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