Break away support

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Paul123
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm

Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:31 pm

Hi
I have an object with has a plane surface parallel to the printing plate. this are is around 20 cm2 and should be as flat as possible. I have a two extrudwe printer, therefore i useed support with washable material and an a full layer just jefore the mentiond area. Doing so i got my perfect straight surface.
What i try now is finding an approach with beak away support instead of washable material. If i take the same kind of support, i am not able to break it away. Therefore my question is: How can i tell ideamaker, that i want a narrow but breakable support? do i have to design such a support with many thin points in my CAD software or did i overlook this functionality in ideamaker? Or do i need another slicer which is capable doing this? Thanks a lot
Paul

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Break away support

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:14 am

According to our experience, the more dense the supports are generated, the bigger chance to get them removed as a whole piece like the bottom surface Raft attached to. With that thought, we have created Dense Support Layers in ideaMaker. You can find the related settings in the following link.
https://support.raise3d.com/ideaMaker/5 ... 5-439.html

What's more, you can also try generate support 90 degress to the plane surface to generate support lines lke Bridging.

Paul123
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Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:26 pm

Thanks Vicky for your reply. I am a beginner and maybe I have a misunderstanding. Your explanation comparing the dens support with the raft seems logical, but I still don't understand how I can get rid of this raft layer if the next solid layer is directly printed on the raft with the same material. In the simulation of ideamaker the raft layer looks like a normal layer with no break away points (see the attached screenshot). is that only in simulation and there are some break away points in "real life" or do I have a general misunderstanding there?
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Bildschirmfoto 2020-09-12 um 20.19.32.png

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Break away support

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:06 am

There is actually a gap between model and Raft. But it is not shown in Preview.

Paul123
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Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:36 am

Ok, thanks, I understand.
Generally speaking, do you think its a good idea trying to approach a plain surface without a second, different support material, or is it always better using this possibility, if available? At the moment i have the impression that printing with two filaments has its issues, too, and therefore i try to find out what is the best possible solution without a second filament. do you think it should be possible, or are such plain surfaces without dissolving filaments always problematical?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Break away support

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:05 am

I will say the result of using dissolvable material should be the best as there will have nothing left after dissolving.
But if you don't want to use an extra different special material on your prints, Dense Layer is the best option so far in my experience. Because once you get the Dense Layers removed completely, the supported bottom surfaces quality is better than any other support which normally have a little dots from support left or fallen overhang strings which are not fully supported by support pillars.
If you don't want to use Dense Layer, then only the short overhangs being supported on both side with other structures on model underneath can be printed out with no support as bridging.

Labirynt
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Re: Break away support

Postby Labirynt » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:14 am

Paul123 wrote:Ok, thanks, I understand.
Generally speaking, do you think its a good idea trying to approach a plain surface without a second, different support material, or is it always better using this possibility, if available? At the moment i have the impression that printing with two filaments has its issues, too, and therefore i try to find out what is the best possible solution without a second filament. do you think it should be possible, or are such plain surfaces without dissolving filaments always problematical?



it depends of used materials - If you print for example with ABS, you can run fans on first model layer after supports, to reduce layer adhesion between model and supports.
You can also change nozzle just for one layer - dense support to have it from different material (or washable filament). And the rest of supporst print with nozzle the same, as you print the model :)

FOGD.NO
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Re: Break away support

Postby FOGD.NO » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:26 pm

I have had success using petg as a dense support layer for ABS. Print petg at lowest temp with couple of dense layers. They do not bond very well together so easy to remove support. I use it with no distance between like washable support

Paul123
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Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:33 pm

Hey, that sounds very clever. Did you maybe try the same with ASA Filament once? I plan to use this type because if its temperature- and UV resistance, because my part is a electronic housing which needs to resist sunlight and temperature > 80 deg. C...
Or does anybody else have a recommendation for a supporting material for ASA??

Thank you all so far:-)

FOGD.NO wrote:I have had success using petg as a dense support layer for ABS. Print petg at lowest temp with couple of dense layers. They do not bond very well together so easy to remove support. I use it with no distance between like washable support

FOGD.NO
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Re: Break away support

Postby FOGD.NO » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:25 am

Paul123 wrote:Hey, that sounds very clever. Did you maybe try the same with ASA Filament once? I plan to use this type because if its temperature- and UV resistance, because my part is a electronic housing which needs to resist sunlight and temperature > 80 deg. C...
Or does anybody else have a recommendation for a supporting material for ASA??

Thank you all so far:-)

FOGD.NO wrote:I have had success using petg as a dense support layer for ABS. Print petg at lowest temp with couple of dense layers. They do not bond very well together so easy to remove support. I use it with no distance between like washable support


Not tried ASA, but try PETG for it. It is similar to ABS so perhaps it work. Just print two cubes on top of each other and set left extruder on one and right extruder for the other cube. Then try ASA/PETG and if that does not work just try a different filament to see how it sticks.

Paul123
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Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:26 pm

I tried your two-cubes recommendation, but the lower cube with petg melted away a little bit. nozzle-temp was quite similar on both extruders, so maybe the closed enclosure is the reason? printing with open chamber will not work because of larger asa parts. did you try printing your two cubes in a closed chamber? maybe the melting problem is not too big if only the dense support is printed with petg - I will try this out...

FOGD.NO wrote:Not tried ASA, but try PETG for it. It is similar to ABS so perhaps it work. Just print two cubes on top of each other and set left extruder on one and right extruder for the other cube. Then try ASA/PETG and if that does not work just try a different filament to see how it sticks.

FOGD.NO
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Re: Break away support

Postby FOGD.NO » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:18 am

Paul123 wrote:I tried your two-cubes recommendation, but the lower cube with petg melted away a little bit. nozzle-temp was quite similar on both extruders, so maybe the closed enclosure is the reason? printing with open chamber will not work because of larger asa parts. did you try printing your two cubes in a closed chamber? maybe the melting problem is not too big if only the dense support is printed with petg - I will try this out...

FOGD.NO wrote:Not tried ASA, but try PETG for it. It is similar to ABS so perhaps it work. Just print two cubes on top of each other and set left extruder on one and right extruder for the other cube. Then try ASA/PETG and if that does not work just try a different filament to see how it sticks.


Did you have the recommended bed temp for the petg? If you have higher temp on bed with asa then petg, then you might need ASA first, and then petg. Just to try the combination you should perhaps try ASA first and then PETG for the double cube.
When printing with support I usually only have the petg as a dense support layer so you are printing the same filament on print and support, but right extruder with dense layer. then you get faster print time since it does not switch between extruder all the time.

Paul123
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:50 pm

I tried exactly the same thing today: using PETG only in dense support. Surprisingly in my settings the both materials behaved exactly the other way round: the PETG could be easy separated from the support material below, but the ASA above, which should be the most separable (two layers distance) literally melted together with the PETG below. I also tried lowering the ASA nozzle-temp to the same level as the PETG (230 degC), but with the same effect. I made a comparison with two ASA cubes and they were even easier seperable (but not as good as I need;-)

i didn't compare it with an ABS print, but it seems combining PETG and ASA doesn't work as good as you experienced with ABS.

do you have any other idea which material I should try next?


FOGD.NO wrote:Did you have the recommended bed temp for the petg? If you have higher temp on bed with asa then petg, then you might need ASA first, and then petg. Just to try the combination you should perhaps try ASA first and then PETG for the double cube.
When printing with support I usually only have the petg as a dense support layer so you are printing the same filament on print and support, but right extruder with dense layer. then you get faster print time since it does not switch between extruder all the time.

Labirynt
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:08 am

Re: Break away support

Postby Labirynt » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:18 pm

Paul123 wrote:I tried exactly the same thing today: using PETG only in dense support. Surprisingly in my settings the both materials behaved exactly the other way round: the PETG could be easy separated from the support material below, but the ASA above, which should be the most separable (two layers distance) literally melted together with the PETG below. I also tried lowering the ASA nozzle-temp to the same level as the PETG (230 degC), but with the same effect. I made a comparison with two ASA cubes and they were even easier seperable (but not as good as I need;-)

i didn't compare it with an ABS print, but it seems combining PETG and ASA doesn't work as good as you experienced with ABS.

do you have any other idea which material I should try next?


FOGD.NO wrote:Did you have the recommended bed temp for the petg? If you have higher temp on bed with asa then petg, then you might need ASA first, and then petg. Just to try the combination you should perhaps try ASA first and then PETG for the double cube.
When printing with support I usually only have the petg as a dense support layer so you are printing the same filament on print and support, but right extruder with dense layer. then you get faster print time since it does not switch between extruder all the time.


ASA/ABS <-> HIPS/PLA/PVA

HIPS is dissolvable (but not in water), PVA in water

FOGD.NO
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Re: Break away support

Postby FOGD.NO » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:13 am

Labirynt wrote:ASA/ABS <-> HIPS/PLA/PVA

HIPS is dissolvable (but not in water), PVA in water



From my experience it is hard to find good sitrus for HIPS some places and some are mixed with other cleaning agent that attack ABS also. PVA is hard to get "perfect". I have bought PVA HT from primaselect and trying that next for dense support layer since it got print temp aroundt 235-255C.

Labirynt
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Re: Break away support

Postby Labirynt » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:40 am

FOGD.NO wrote:
Labirynt wrote:ASA/ABS <-> HIPS/PLA/PVA

HIPS is dissolvable (but not in water), PVA in water



From my experience it is hard to find good sitrus for HIPS some places and some are mixed with other cleaning agent that attack ABS also. PVA is hard to get "perfect". I have bought PVA HT from primaselect and trying that next for dense support layer since it got print temp aroundt 235-255C.

I bought cheap HIPS solvent (that was the name ;) ) for 3D printing, and it works fine. If you want to use Limonene, you should buy Laboratory/Purified grade. If you buy with Technical grade - it can, but not necessary will (depends on producer) react with abs/asa.

HIPS and ABS/ASA doesn't stick really hard - in most of cases, you can remove it manually :) /depends on sticking surface/

Paul123
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Break away support

Postby Paul123 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:34 am

Sounds promising. So with „manually“ you mean removing HIPS without liquid? That would be my preferred scenario.
Btw, as we are talking about ASA: In opposite to PLA i experienced a lot of nozzle stuck and poor printing with ASA. I read in the forum that cooling is a big issue at the Raise Pro2. Do you share this exoerience? I am not able to print a part> 3 hours at higher temps like needed for ASA. Anibody tried a water cooling??
Labirynt wrote:
FOGD.NO wrote:
Labirynt wrote:ASA/ABS <-> HIPS/PLA/PVA

HIPS is dissolvable (but not in water), PVA in water



From my experience it is hard to find good sitrus for HIPS some places and some are mixed with other cleaning agent that attack ABS also. PVA is hard to get "perfect". I have bought PVA HT from primaselect and trying that next for dense support layer since it got print temp aroundt 235-255C.

I bought cheap HIPS solvent (that was the name ;) ) for 3D printing, and it works fine. If you want to use Limonene, you should buy Laboratory/Purified grade. If you buy with Technical grade - it can, but not necessary will (depends on producer) react with abs/asa.

HIPS and ABS/ASA doesn't stick really hard - in most of cases, you can remove it manually :) /depends on sticking surface/


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