First layer setting clarification

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jdaved402
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Wed May 13, 2020 2:01 am

I was wondering if someone might clarify the differences between some of the ideamaker settings, as they relate to the first layer of a print?
It is my understanding that z-offset is the physical clearance you set between the plate and the nozzle using a feeler gauge or a business card or whatever.

My understanding of 'General Layer Height (GLH)' is that this is the vertical amount by which the plate moves downwards from the nozzle starting on the second layer of the print.

I'm having a little trouble understanding what the 'first layer height (FLH)' value entails.

1) Does the FLH setting affect the flow rate/extruded amount in any way or does the FLH setting affect only the vertical positioning of the nozzle?
2)If FLH only affects vertical position of the nozzle and does not affect the flowrate of the filament, then what is the vertical position referenced from? To clarify my question with an example, if I have a z-offset of 0.2mm, and insert a FLH value of 0.15mm in ideamaker, would the distance from the nozzle to the bed be 'y'=0.15mm or 'y'=0.35mm (0.2mm + 0.15mm)?
3)In order to get a good squish of the filament onto the bed, to ensure proper first layer adhesion, generally, the most important thing is that the diameter of the extruded amount of filament has to get greater than 'y', correct?

jdaved402
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Wed May 13, 2020 6:08 pm

Forgot another question: 4) based on question 3, what would happen if you set the z-offset to be 0.1mm and you selected a first layer thickness of 0.2mm?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 14, 2020 10:19 pm

When Z direction home to original height. there is still a physical gap between nozzle and build plate. This gap will need to be measured and adjusted by physical tools, such like the feeler gauge we attach in our printer not by software.
The layer height for first layer can only help adjust the adhesion for the first layer to build plate which is the layer height + the physical gap.

jdaved402
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Thu May 14, 2020 10:46 pm

Vicky, thanks for the reply.

So, to make sure I understand this correctly,

a) First layer height DOES NOT affect the amount of material extruded, all else being equal? So if I put 0.25mm first layer height for a print, and then print it using a 0.15mm first layer height, the mass flow rate of the filament will be the same, is what you are saying?

b) In the example I gave in my original question 2) the distance from the nozzle to the bed is 0.35mm then? When you say 'adhesion for the first layer' it is still not clear if you are referring to the top of the first layer or the bottom of the first layer, that's why I was hoping for an explanation in regards to the distance between the nozzle and the bed.

c) I'm still unsure about my question 3) because the answer for 2) was a little ambiguous, same goes for question 4)

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat May 16, 2020 1:00 am

The amount of extruded filament will be Layer Height * Extruson Width * Extrusion Length. So the larger layer height, the more it will extrude. So it is related to layer height but not the nozzle physical gap to build plate.
The height of nozzle to build plate will be the height of the printed out layer to build plate.

jdaved402
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Sat May 16, 2020 10:01 pm

Thanks for the response Vicky, that's exactly the information I was trying to get answered, because my own experiences changing the first layer height was changing the mass flow rate of the filament, so I knew I had a misunderstanding of what it represented. With this information I had a different set of questions:

1) You confirmed that First Layer Height DOES affect extrusion flow rate. The amount of extruded filament = Layer Height * Extruson Width * Extrusion Length, from what you said. Which ideaMaker Variable represents the 'Extrusion Length' in this equation? Is if 'First Layer Flowrate'? And if it is, is this the ONLY factor that will influence the 'Extrusion Length, for the first layer?

2) You mentioned that 'The height of nozzle to build plate will be the height of the printed out layer to build plate'. It seems to me then that 'First Layer Height' has no real physical value to the user, other than being a variable used to determine the amount of extruded filament, because from what you said, the actual first layer height of the print will be whatever distance the user physically sets it to be through the z-offset. So my question is: Are there certain guidelines/recommendations that help a user determine the appropriate 'First Layer Height' value for a print, maybe based on the actual physical value of z-offset? Or is this something that we are just supposed to experiment with until we find something that works if we decide to change the way we print out first layers?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 19, 2020 12:38 am

1. Let's consider the length extruder have travelled as D, and Layer Height * Extrusion Width * D will be the total extrusion amount of filament has been used during this movement, the unit is cubic millimeter.
2. We recommend not slicing with Layer Height lower than 70%-80% of nozzle size and not higher than nozzle size.

jdaved402
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:58 pm

Vicky,

Which ideaMaker Variable controls the 'Extruded Length'?

And, I know 'First layer flowrate' on ideaMaker is a '%', but I was wondering what the actual units were that the percentage is representing? For example, 0[%] corresponds to 0 [?] and 100[%] corresponds to 25[?]? I am asking because I am trying to understand the relationship between 'First layer flowrate' on ideaMaker and the 'amount of extruded element' that you said we control with 'Layer Height * Extruson Width * Extrusion Length'.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 19, 2020 11:21 pm

It will be rely on how far the nozzle has travelled.
Flowrate will affect total extruded amount. It will be Layer Height * Extruder Width * D * Flowrate.

jdaved402
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby jdaved402 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:48 pm

1) So it sounds like 'Extruded Length' is not a variable that the user can control through ideaMaker then, is this correct?

2) Also, it seems like you could get the exact same 'total extruded amount' by using different combinations between 'Layer Height, Extruder Width, D, and Flowrate[%]. Can you confirm this?

3) Out of curiosity, how exactly is 'extrusion width' physically achieved? The only reasoning I can think of is that it only just affect the speed of the extrusion stepper motors. So again, the name doesn't actually have physical meaning to the user. I'm not entirely sure if this is true though, could you clarify?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: First layer setting clarification

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 22, 2020 1:09 am

The lines in Preview are the extrusion lines. Each line will come with Layer Height, Extrusion Width and Length of this line.
When import a 3D Model into ideaMaker, it will calculate all these values according the settings and the model's structure. Once Extruder Amount being calculated, ideaMaker will use the diameter of the filament to calculate how long the filament needs to move forward in extruder which is the E value in Gcode.
But in reality, the actual extrusion width will be affected by other factors. Because the melted filament is fluid. So the other settings in software are helping compensate if the actual result doesn't meet with the calculated result.


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