Supports

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mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Supports

Postby mnew » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:03 pm

I am having problems with supports leaving marks behind after removal.
There seem to be lots of settings but I have no idea the consequences of these.

How do I avoid / minimise this without using fancy support filaments?

supports.JPG

crimsonyoshi
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Manitoba, Canada

Re: Supports

Postby crimsonyoshi » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 pm

What materials are you using (part and support)?

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:15 pm

Raise3D PLA for both same nozzle.

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Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Supports

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:57 pm

Which slicing software and printing template you are using? Is there any chance to share some screenshot of your settings here?

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:32 pm

For Grey PLA 0.1 layer raft and TP suport-export.bin
settings
(14.57 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
For Grey PLA 0.1 layer raft and TP suport-export.bin
settings
(14.57 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
I am useing ideamaker 3.3.0 with the default support settings.

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Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Supports

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:22 pm

Downloaded your profile and compare with default template, seems that you have edited some settings from the original settings, such as you are using Grid type for your support. Have you tried Line type support? Doesn't work well with your prints?

Russ406
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Supports

Postby Russ406 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:24 pm

You'll never get amazing surface quality where support is used. I've used "dense support layers" set to 2 or 3 w/ 80% infill w/ decent success. Another thing I do often is cut the model up so no support is needed (or minimal) and then use printed dowel pins to and glue to put it back together. This won't always give a perfect meet up at the joint though, most my prints are painted anyways so I generally just use epoxy as my glue and it also fills the voids.

Edit: I went back and looked at your pictures. It seems that you may still have some support actually connected to the model. You may also want to tinker w/ the "Vertical Offset Top layer" on the support tab in ideamaker. I pretty much always leave this at one, which I think is the default but it may help in your situation.

crimsonyoshi
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Manitoba, Canada

Re: Supports

Postby crimsonyoshi » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:00 pm

Not entirely true. I've got pictures in older threads here using PLA support on PLA models, and the support comes right off leaving a fairly nice face on the model. I'll give that it's not perfect as without supports, but it's pretty darn close! If you're looking for the thread / pictures, I have a red wheel cap in PLA prior to doing it in polycarbonate that came out great. (And on a side note, I've got better settings I need to upload for my polycarbonate stuff).

I would agree that it appears your support isn't detaching, and vertical offset layers might help. For PLA prints, I have mine set to 1, so there's a 0.2mm gap between the model and the support on extrusion. This doesn't get me a precisely printed model, but for my tolerances so far, that's completely acceptable.

Either that, or there's minor warping happening and there's mushing going on between layers (in the same wheel cap thread in this forum, I've got pictures showing the warping and grinding / fusing of material).

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:06 am

Hi crimsonyoshi could you send me a screen shot of the setting you suggest.
I am starting to dispair of getting any type of finish using supports and having to attack it with a soldering iron after the print!

Thanks

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:33 am

I seem to be making progress

The supports come away nicely now but they are still leaving the first layer of the print behind on the support material. Any suggestions? I am using Raise3D PLA with Ideamaker 3.4.0 I am printing with a 0.1 layer height.


Any suggestions what to try to stop this layer being stuck to the supports would be very welcome.
Attachments
Support test5b.JPG
Settings Layer tab
Support test5a.JPG
Setting Support tab
supporttest4 image.JPG
Print Job with first layer left behind

crimsonyoshi
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Manitoba, Canada

Re: Supports

Postby crimsonyoshi » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:35 pm

That moment you type something, and have to re-log in so it all vanishes. Bleh.

Truthfully I'm just using the default Raise3D profile included with 3.3.0 (as I'm not running 3.4.0 yet). I've only increased the density of both the regular support layers and dense support layers from default values.

From what I can see in your picture, it looks like your first layer of the model has strands that aren't uniform in extrusion. I'm assuming the piece on the right is the bottom with the raft touching the table. I can see strands which look like they start in the holes of your support grid. First, I should mention I use lines for both my support and dense layers (not grid), and I have my densities set to something like 75% and 90% respectively.

The way support works is by basically slightly under extruding the material so it can reduce the contact surface area and break away easier. If your first layer of material is not properly adhering to the below support layer (and falling into the holes), then you're creating essentially more support due to a lower surface contact area. Try line support and make the density at least 75%.

I'll also note if that piece on the right only has the first layer attached to it, that's not a lot of material for the model to grow on. Maybe print this flipped 180 degrees, so the top of the current piece is the bottom? Line support with higher density (and a resolution of 1mm) will help with getting support more where it needs to be.

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:14 am

I have tried the settings you suggested. I think it is a bit better but still not as I would like ( see photo ) Any ideas?

I can't invert the item as this is just a small sample for testing and I need it this way up :(

Layer height 0.1mm

Any suggestion much apprieciated
Attachments
Support test5c.JPG
Settings
supporttest5c image.JPG
Print job

crimsonyoshi
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Manitoba, Canada

Re: Supports

Postby crimsonyoshi » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:50 pm

That's certainly getting there! Try a vertical offset down layer of 1. That will separate the support layer from the model layer by one layer height, and should allow for better model adhesion as opposed to model-support adhesion.

The only other thing I can see is with a lot of those lines going around in "random" directions, I'd want to make sure there's at most a 45 degree overhang to the next layer up where your "random" lines are one or two passes thick. Printing in a V type of a pattern is okay. It's not great if the angle at the base of the V is larger than 45 degrees (though that's where support comes in). By default, anything printed with support will not come out as nice as no support needed. That said, I am on record of saying there's not a huge difference (and there isn't from some pictures I've posted in some of my older threads), but there is still SOME difference.

TBH from what I can see on the left model, it appears the dense printing is working as I can see denser line layers. When you modified the layer height to 0.1mm, did you modify any other values to compensate - or use a narrower nozzle? By default the 0.4mm nozzle works best at 0.2mm layer thickness. The 0.2mm nozzle works better with a 0.1mm layer height.

Beyond this if it's still not coming out close to the way you want it, give tech support a call and direct them to this thread. They will read the forums, and can likely offer more insight than me!

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Thu May 02, 2019 1:31 pm

I thought I would invert the job to see how the suported layer would print if not supports as it was facing up (pic2) and looks simular to the non inverted print (pic1). It looks as though the addition of supports is making the surface print with these crazy patterns (pic3). Any ideas why? I now have support setting that mean I can separate the piece from its supports easiy now and it doesn't leav the pattern of the supports but this surface does go crazy. The item is from photgrammetry so is far from flat. Any suggestion welcome.

mnew
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Supports

Postby mnew » Thu May 02, 2019 1:33 pm

I thought I would invert the job to see how the suported layer would print if not supports as it was facing up (pic2) and looks simular to the non inverted print (pic1). It looks as though the addition of supports is making the surface print with these crazy patterns (pic3). Any ideas why? I now have support setting that mean I can separate the piece from its supports easiy now and it doesn't leav the pattern of the supports but this surface does go crazy. The item is from photgrammetry so is far from flat. Any suggestion welcome.
Attachments
supporttest5c image.JPG
Pic1
supporttest15.JPG
Pic 3
supporttest14.JPG
Pic 2


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