Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

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Biggeek
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Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:01 pm

So I just set up my N2+ about 10 days ago.. had a few prints come out nice.. had a few errors.. but the prints were good..so far until today

I came in to see my print that had been printing for 20+ hrs had decided to offset to the left by 2-3" it was only a couple layers in when I found it.. no errors or anything I can see wrong... nobody has been near the printer all night/morning.

I measured and it offset at 173mm I have another print I did that is taller than that so I have had successful prints that go past 173mm

Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Having to reprint a 1200g 126hr print is not ideal to say the least :(

Jetguy
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Postby Jetguy » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:59 pm

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Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:34 pm

Thanks I'm not new to 3D printing.. I've been printing for 6+ years.. but have never had a machine do this as drastic with no clue as why.. .there is no curled up layer or anything extruding that the nozzle would have hit.. I have had 200+ hr prints on my CubeX and Z18..they have never even stepped over let alone 2"

And yes I'm using the feed tube.. matches the other 2 FDM printers I have..so it would make sense to include it with the kit..I agree with you there :)

So again, absolutely no apparent reason for this to happen.. no.ahhh that's what caused it moment..so I have never encountered this before on any of my machines..I have seen a Rigidbot do this..but only a few mm to the back..and its cause the stepper motor was shot.. this machine has been plugged in for 10 days... not a great start


Jetguy wrote:Welcome to 3D printing. This is perfectly normal for a stepper based machine. There is little you can do about it.
Steppers have no position feedback. it's a giant game of Simon says where the controller says move 24 steps forward and you assume the motor could overcome whatever mechanical forces and acceleration are involved and move 24steps. The next move depends on the previous move never, ever, ever, ever, ever, skipping a step.
If the nozzle strikes a curled up layer, if you failed to use a feed guide tube those can all cause such a skip.

You are using a guide tube right?? I know it didn't come with one but this should be mandatory. With no guide tube, if the head tries to move to the left of the machine away from the spools, it jerks the filament pulling the head back. A guide tube flexes in a U shape and doesn't allow this jerking and pulling.

Jetguy
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Postby Jetguy » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:15 pm

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Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:06 am

Not upset at all :) other than the printer does not seem reliable from the get go..

And there is 5% infill..nothing showing any hit or anything...nice and smooth like I said..

I guess I'll just have to see if it happens again.. on another 126hr print :)


Jetguy wrote:Just because you cannot visually identify the defect that cause the skip doesn't mean a defect does not exist in the print. This could happen at layer 2 or layer 2000. The print shift distance is no indication of anything either. It just means you skipped a bunch of steps at once. That further defines it was probably a pretty serious nozzle strike.

I would use a razor knife and split the print at the shift and look very carefully at the infill. Again, given a big bunch of steps, this was probably a fast infill line that caught something, shifted a bunch of steps on a high speed infill run, then when it changes direction, the nozzle could move and then it resumed the pattern but now shifted. the fact it continued to print shows this was unlikely to be an electronic glitch. If it was glitching like a bad stepper driver or wiring, then you would see even further that the mistake after the big shift would show more errors.

I'm sorry you are upset but not sure what you expect for an answer. 3D printing is not a perfect science.

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John@Raise3D
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby John@Raise3D » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:15 am

Biggeek wrote:So I just set up my N2+ about 10 days ago.. had a few prints come out nice.. had a few errors.. but the prints were good..so far until today

I came in to see my print that had been printing for 20+ hrs had decided to offset to the left by 2-3" it was only a couple layers in when I found it.. no errors or anything I can see wrong... nobody has been near the printer all night/morning.

I measured and it offset at 173mm I have another print I did that is taller than that so I have had successful prints that go past 173mm

Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Having to reprint a 1200g 126hr print is not ideal to say the least :(


A few things can cause this problem.
First thing I would suspect is the stepper driver overheat. You can remove the electronic box cover (on the right hand side with a flash sign on it) and apply additional cooling to the board.
Second thing is to check the X and Y axis, whether they are moving freely. Apply additional lubrication anyway.
Third thing to check is whether there is anything on the model on that specific layer that may causing this problem.
Last thing is to check whether there is any tangling or dragging from the spool. If the filament cannot be released from the spool freely, it will cause this problem.

LonV
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby LonV » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:22 am

I did find that I raised the XY travel speed on mine and it was causing a lot of shifts (to the right though) where it would pull the extruder when moving from right to left (because the filament was short). I have some tubing now to prevent this being an issue (but slowing it down helped too).

Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:24 am

Thank you :) I'll check the overheating angle.. as I said before there is no indication..no binding of filament..no layer issue..no skipping off the model. Super basic disc that is 5mm thick and 5% infill..no lips or ledges to print.. so 1 basic model

John@Raise3D wrote:
Biggeek wrote:So I just set up my N2+ about 10 days ago.. had a few prints come out nice.. had a few errors.. but the prints were good..so far until today

I came in to see my print that had been printing for 20+ hrs had decided to offset to the left by 2-3" it was only a couple layers in when I found it.. no errors or anything I can see wrong... nobody has been near the printer all night/morning.

I measured and it offset at 173mm I have another print I did that is taller than that so I have had successful prints that go past 173mm

Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Having to reprint a 1200g 126hr print is not ideal to say the least :(


A few things can cause this problem.
First thing I would suspect is the stepper driver overheat. You can remove the electronic box cover (on the right hand side with a flash sign on it) and apply additional cooling to the board.
Second thing is to check the X and Y axis, whether they are moving freely. Apply additional lubrication anyway.
Third thing to check is whether there is anything on the model on that specific layer that may causing this problem.
Last thing is to check whether there is any tangling or dragging from the spool. If the filament cannot be released from the spool freely, it will cause this problem.

Biggeek
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Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:26 am

I'm using the default med quality slice..only thing I changed was 5% infill instead of 10% so it shouldn't be the speed..

Maybe the update I did to the new software and firmware? Only thing that I have changed since the last 2 prints that worked.

LonV wrote:I did find that I raised the XY travel speed on mine and it was causing a lot of shifts (to the right though) where it would pull the extruder when moving from right to left (because the filament was short). I have some tubing now to prevent this being an issue (but slowing it down helped too).

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Derek@Raise3D
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Derek@Raise3D » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:37 pm

Biggeek wrote:I'm using the default med quality slice..only thing I changed was 5% infill instead of 10% so it shouldn't be the speed..

Maybe the update I did to the new software and firmware? Only thing that I have changed since the last 2 prints that worked.

LonV wrote:I did find that I raised the XY travel speed on mine and it was causing a lot of shifts (to the right though) where it would pull the extruder when moving from right to left (because the filament was short). I have some tubing now to prevent this being an issue (but slowing it down helped too).

@Biggeek, can you share some pictures with us? That maybe helpful for us to determine the problem. I suggest to start with the lubricant problem and overheating angle if you're printing ABS.
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Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:47 pm

There's really nothing to take a picture of except a print that stopped at 173mm no indication of why it stopped... already said that a few times.

I think the overheating thing..not sure what I can do except order some heatsinks? The lubrication is not an issue..thing has grease all over the place..get it on my arms/hands anytime I have to reach into the cabinet....

Derek@Raise3D wrote:
Biggeek wrote:I'm using the default med quality slice..only thing I changed was 5% infill instead of 10% so it shouldn't be the speed..

Maybe the update I did to the new software and firmware? Only thing that I have changed since the last 2 prints that worked.

LonV wrote:I did find that I raised the XY travel speed on mine and it was causing a lot of shifts (to the right though) where it would pull the extruder when moving from right to left (because the filament was short). I have some tubing now to prevent this being an issue (but slowing it down helped too).

@Biggeek, can you share some pictures with us? That maybe helpful for us to determine the problem. I suggest to start with the lubricant problem and overheating angle if you're printing ABS.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Andy Cohen » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:38 pm

Not too sure we get the whole picture... Please tell us if this is what you have... a print that shifted 2-3" after it got to a Z height of 173mm... You then stopped the print. It was not an Air Print... right?

If this is the case... I have found my N2 to be VERY sensitive to nozzle crash/obstruction. Just the slightest raise in a bridge or an extended curled bit of extrusion and the nozzle hits it and it could easily miss steps. I'd ask dual extruder? Mine's a dual, I removed the right side nozzle. Also I added a squirrel cage type downward fan. See the thread on upgrades. If you are using Simplify3D you could also Z hop or as S3D calls it, "Retraction Vertical lift". It will time to your print though. A pic would be nice regardless.

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John@Raise3D
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby John@Raise3D » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:56 am

Andy Cohen wrote:Not too sure we get the whole picture... Please tell us if this is what you have... a print that shifted 2-3" after it got to a Z height of 173mm... You then stopped the print. It was not an Air Print... right?

If this is the case... I have found my N2 to be VERY sensitive to nozzle crash/obstruction. Just the slightest raise in a bridge or an extended curled bit of extrusion and the nozzle hits it and it could easily miss steps. I'd ask dual extruder? Mine's a dual, I removed the right side nozzle. Also I added a squirrel cage type downward fan. See the thread on upgrades. If you are using Simplify3D you could also Z hop or as S3D calls it, "Retraction Vertical lift". It will time to your print though. A pic would be nice regardless.


That could also be a cause as Andy mentioned and in my earlier reply.
You can download the latest ideaMaker, which has the 'Z hop' feature as S3D and free.

Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:50 pm

I did stop the print.. it was only about 3-4 layers into the "shift" and it was making a "grinding" noise.. so I figured it would be best to stop it.. but no visible obstruction at all..like I said several times..

I will try the Z-Hop option if I can find it?? and hints?

ALso I left a print on last night.. this one is all sorts of messed.. some sides of the print were nice.. most were not.. and you can see for yourself..no idea here.. just getting super frustirated with prints failing constantly .. the raft/bottom of the models were sucure no lifting or curling...but what a mess to come into
2016-04-05 12.30.34.jpg
2016-04-05 12.29.08.jpg
2016-04-05 12.28.55.jpg
2016-04-05 12.27.33.jpg


John@Raise3D wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:Not too sure we get the whole picture... Please tell us if this is what you have... a print that shifted 2-3" after it got to a Z height of 173mm... You then stopped the print. It was not an Air Print... right?

If this is the case... I have found my N2 to be VERY sensitive to nozzle crash/obstruction. Just the slightest raise in a bridge or an extended curled bit of extrusion and the nozzle hits it and it could easily miss steps. I'd ask dual extruder? Mine's a dual, I removed the right side nozzle. Also I added a squirrel cage type downward fan. See the thread on upgrades. If you are using Simplify3D you could also Z hop or as S3D calls it, "Retraction Vertical lift". It will time to your print though. A pic would be nice regardless.


That could also be a cause as Andy mentioned and in my earlier reply.
You can download the latest ideaMaker, which has the 'Z hop' feature as S3D and free.

Jetguy
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Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:57 pm

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Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:05 pm

OK I'm up for fixing.. getting tired of the prints like this :P

Raise3D PLA.. only kind I have :)

And pics of the guide/tube..

2016-04-05 14.01.10.jpg
2016-04-05 14.01.05.jpg


It doesn't seem to grind it.. no flakes and when I unload/load its not ground up at all..motor skipping steps... not that I can see/hear. How would I test this better?

As I said I'm up to do what I need to on this.. I've taken apart my Z18 a few times...the whole thing to fix it... so this one looks like a lot less work and more user friendly :)

Thanks for any info


Jetguy wrote:Clearly you have a serious problem with consistent extrusion. You MUST fix that first because talking about anything else is a waste of time.
What filament is this? Brand and type (better say Raise 3D PLA)
You said you use a feed guide tube, we need pictures of that setup.
That covers the external based stuff.

Now onto other stuff, have you determined if the drive gear on the extruder is grinding the filament or is the motor skipping steps.
It's one or the other and that determines what we need to fix next.
If slipping/grinding, you need to either set the gear to V groove distance or do one of the half dozen mods floating around the forum.
Again, the system can work stock, but that distance is a user adjustment.

Jetguy
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Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:26 pm

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Jetguy
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Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:29 pm

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Andy Cohen
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Andy Cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:06 pm

At first... I'd agree with Jetguy. It looks like You're having feed issues long before any offset issues.
But on a closer inspection I can see it offsetting back and forth from the beginning of the print and upward getting worse as you go up.
"Z Hop" is in the "Ooze" panel after you go into Advanced, when you edit a profile.
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Biggeek
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Re: Print Failed... Offset 2" to the left??

Postby Biggeek » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:10 pm

Ok thanks I'll try this.. in about an hour or 2 :) I'll post up the results
Jetguy wrote:Ok, do the pinch test.

Pull up the guide tube so that bare filament is exposed entering the extruder.
Use the load menu on the LCD and begin loading.
Grab the filament between your fingers and try to stop the filament from being pulled in. This should cause the motor to skip steps.
If not, it grinds the filament. If it grinds the filament, unload the filament.
Remove the front acrylic cover
Loosen the 4 M3 screws holding the motor.
Use a set of pliers and pull the end of the motor shaft nearer the M3 holding the V groove idler.
Now while doing that, tighten the 4 motor screws.
The drive gear should be closer than before to the V groove bearing.
If not, you need to follow the shim mod that basically angles the motor making it closer.
Repeat until the motor skips steps instead of grinding.


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