Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

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innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Tue May 18, 2021 8:09 pm

Hi there

Was printing several days and about 1.5kg with Polymaker PA6-CF in great print quality with a Pro2 Plus. That’s by far the best nylon/carbon I was using till now, perfect for functional parts.

Today I had to stop a 60h job, since there have been some alignment issues while printing after about 48h.

Re-started two short 3.5h jobs (a part, which I printed without any issue in past) from the same filament spool. But now I had to realize a strange issue on both print jobs in the same manner. The round tube has two bumps and some vertical cracks. The issues are at the same place on both prints.

7AB525AA-C435-4958-8FEA-3E35C69A566C.jpeg

C616A2CE-A44E-4BA8-BE01-385EB2B4F54B.jpeg

DDF7F7AB-146D-43F9-8FE7-C9C29430B174.jpeg


While watching some minutes during printing, I couldn’t realize any hardware malfunction.

Any idea what the reason could be for this issues, before I’m disassembling the head?

Sincerely

BTW: The filament is absolutely dry and directly fed out of a dryer. Same 2kg spool as previous successful prints.

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Steven@Raise3D
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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:24 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Steven@Raise3D » Sat May 22, 2021 1:37 am

innoprint wrote:Hi there

Was printing several days and about 1.5kg with Polymaker PA6-CF in great print quality with a Pro2 Plus. That’s by far the best nylon/carbon I was using till now, perfect for functional parts.

Today I had to stop a 60h job, since there have been some alignment issues while printing after about 48h.

Re-started two short 3.5h jobs (a part, which I printed without any issue in past) from the same filament spool. But now I had to realize a strange issue on both print jobs in the same manner. The round tube has two bumps and some vertical cracks. The issues are at the same place on both prints.

7AB525AA-C435-4958-8FEA-3E35C69A566C.jpeg

C616A2CE-A44E-4BA8-BE01-385EB2B4F54B.jpeg

DDF7F7AB-146D-43F9-8FE7-C9C29430B174.jpeg


While watching some minutes during printing, I couldn’t realize any hardware malfunction.

Any idea what the reason could be for this issues, before I’m disassembling the head?

Sincerely

BTW: The filament is absolutely dry and directly fed out of a dryer. Same 2kg spool as previous successful prints.


Based on the images that you have provided it looks like these defects may be a hardware issue. However just to confirm do you have any PLA that could be used to run a test print on the machine?

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Sat May 22, 2021 8:24 pm

You ruined the nozzle printing abrasive material and then "wonder" why the next job doesn't print right.
Was printing several days and about 1.5kg with Polymaker PA6-CF-More than enough to completely wear out an unhardened nozzle
Today I had to stop a 60h job- even more wear
Re-started two short 3.5h jobs (a part, which I printed without any issue in past) from the same filament spool. Then sure, a previous job that worked on a fresh nozzle now fails on a worn nozzle.

Yes, again completely expected given the abrasive and high temperature nature of the filament you were printing.
Last edited by Jetguy on Sat May 22, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Sat May 22, 2021 8:33 pm


innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Mon May 24, 2021 8:08 pm

Steven@Raise3D wrote:
innoprint wrote:Based on the images that you have provided it looks like these defects may be a hardware issue. However just to confirm do you have any PLA that could be used to run a test print on the machine?


Hi Steven@Raise3D

Thanks for your reply. You‘re right, it seems to be a hardware issue. Just printed a spinner as a test in Raise3D PLA on left and on right extruder.

E5D7DDE0-3454-4F76-BED7-730AA2664097.jpeg
left extruder


DB5F413F-1B08-4266-894D-76D933BCD177.jpeg
right extruder – 1/3


8A5B2524-618F-4EB7-BB18-F2327BAFB6E1.jpeg
right extruder – 2/3


FDC16BA4-480C-4A16-9F1B-F533328318B7.jpeg
right extruder – 3/3


I stopped the left print early and changed to the right extruder. Especially the right extruder shows that the circle isn’t round. – Is your assumption for a hardware issue approved?


@Jetguy: Thanks for your contribution. Of course I’m printing with hardened nozzles.

Jetguy
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Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Mon May 24, 2021 11:03 pm

Broken coupler then if a circle isn't a circle. Kind of a known mechanical failure.
I have to be honest though, I think you have more than one problem. The difference in just raw quality between the 2 extruders is not ideal. Since both extruders move together in XY, the motion problem and print not being a true circle is mechanical, but I still question that you may have something wrong or worn on that nozzle.

I think your mechanical fault is in X however, check both X and Y
DB5F413F-1B08-4266-894D-76D933BCD177.jpg

https://support.raise3d.com/Pro2-Series ... 4-685.html
https://support.raise3d.com/Pro2-Series ... 4-676.html

The coupler too is a wear and tear item and honestly, people who print a lot on critical machines should keep spares and be aware of this.
The coupler breaks from flexing from non perfect motor to driven shaft alignment. When it breaks, then there is a backlash or lost motion where the motor moves back and forth, but the axis has a gap so motion is lost.
Again, it happens on both N and Pro2 series https://forum.raise3d.com/search.php?ke ... %5B0%5D=18

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Mon May 24, 2021 11:15 pm

Again, maybe it's just first layers and they print the same, but left looked bad, I mean pretty bad, and yes, with backlash motion, sure layers don't line up to previous layer as the per layer gcode pattern of infill changes, but it just seems worse than that. Again, expected pull in strands on a circle when they fail to bond to the previous layer. But it seems like that+ even more error specific to the left extruder.

The right nozzle obviously was experiencing the mechanical XY problem, bu the extrusion just looks cleaner IMO.
FWIW, very hard to tell in a picture and that color and specific filament, your previous CF print shows everything, every little detail in picture, where the off white just kind of blends in the surface detail and the camera cannot capture the true surface and individual lines of extrusion and results the same way.

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Tue May 25, 2021 10:10 pm

Thanks for your helpful feedback, Jetguy.

Tonight I disassembled the printer and checked both couplers. The X couplers looked good for my eyes, but the Y coupler had some tolerance. The Y also felt a bit more flexible than the X.

After assembling and adjusting them I started a test print with the right extruder in Raise3D PLA again. The result looks much better, but there are some jarring sounds, coming from both couplers, as far as I can locate it. Here some pictures (a bit darker as the last ones), so that you can see the lines and gaps. The print is ok, but not really good.

C74BE291-12C5-4DAB-8BE9-351938BA06D0.jpeg
right extruder after coupler adjustment - 1/4


473A205D-F2B9-4217-8C9A-F0FFDA071D5C.jpeg
right extruder after coupler adjustment - 2/4


E5A854D6-D07D-4C0A-87C2-647F63139AF3.jpeg
right extruder after coupler adjustment - 3/4


F5AE2706-4EF5-4DBF-8A8A-D1107CA3BBE4.jpeg
right extruder after coupler adjustment - 4/4


The current nozzle is a 3dSolex Raise3D Everlast Rubin Nozzle 0.40mm Pro2. They are quite expensive but I had already about 3 nozzles in very poor quality (lost rubin or even to small rubin size). The current nozzle should be ok, but if you think, that the current quality deficit could be a result of a nozzle issue, it’s possible to exchange it again.

What do you think regarding coupler noise? Should I change those? Any other suggestions? Would be great, if I don’t have to send the hole printer to the dealer. Currently I don’t get any help from the dealer, but could send it to fix it in warranty (bring in, complicated packaging and transport). :(

BTW: Two mounting points where broken. I glued them again. But why can they brake?
F876DE9E-8D9E-4166-8D49-8106C6A4CCCC.jpeg
broken mounting

Jetguy
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Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Wed May 26, 2021 3:10 am

Yes, replace the couplers and carry spares on hand. That is not a part to have break and is a wear and tear item.
They break because the motor to shaft alignment is not perfect.


Jetguy
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Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Wed May 26, 2021 3:16 am

As to the mostly cosmetic upper deck panel attachment breaking- well that's due to the frame probably putting stress on it.
You frame could just be slightly out of alignment or some issue, or it could be cracked from shipping damage.

I'd say the mounting point is generally a weak point of the design, so it breaking, not hugely worrying, but at the same time, sure, it's not impossible there is something else moving and putting stress.

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Sun May 30, 2021 3:52 pm

Hi Jetguy & Steven@Raise3D

Well, just exchanged both couplers (X & Y) and adjusted them perfectly. Now the printer sound as normal again and X-/Y-movement seems to be nice again. :)

Mounted the original Raise3D nozzle again to print the current tests in Raise3D PLA. As you can see in the pictures, the first some layers are in bad quality. Later the print is getting better.

5B42814D-FAD9-4627-9B81-705B36E5AA66.jpeg
left nozzle - 1/5 - bad base


8463D918-3950-4CA7-94DF-601EAD553047.jpeg
left nozzle - 2/5 - print getting better after first layers


9C6CDF28-5EF3-4F2D-96C7-70FB0B717536.jpeg
left nozzle - 3/5 - top looks good


31223649-B746-4446-8E45-73279216F585.jpeg
left nozzle - 4/5 - front side


B982FB4F-5609-4862-976D-02BBBEF95AE0.jpeg
left nozzle - 5/5 - back side


Currently I‘m printing on the right extruder to compare. The first lagers are looking nice as they should on right extruder. I will post some pictures soon..

Any idea, what could be wrong with the left extruder?

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Sun May 30, 2021 4:50 pm

Here‘s the result of the right extruder, also with Raise3D PLA (this time in red).

06A51470-0BAB-48DD-8A0D-F3BBB3886170.jpeg
right extruder - 1/3 - perfekt lower layers


CCAA41C1-D745-4AB3-BFC0-073BF01DE12A.jpeg
right extruder - 2/3


5C6872F7-B248-4AD5-B036-D75C3F960522.jpeg
right extruder - 3/3 - nice print


OK, the coupler issues seems to be solved. :)

Any help regarding the left extruder issue?

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Sun May 30, 2021 8:41 pm

Could find a leak with the left extruder and readjusted it in hot conditions. Now the print result looks better..

Printed the Raise3D spinner in PLA in dual extruder mode (original dual extruder gcode from USB stick). Well, quite a strange print result..

Any suggestions?

03EE0461-F3AB-4AD3-AF58-F3EB85334598.jpeg
left white / red right extruder - 1/4


F78CE27B-BACB-401F-ABB5-D22D98967670.jpeg
left white / red right extruder - 2/4


3C716DFA-825F-4C19-9F40-3590D1E72DED.jpeg
left white / red right extruder - 3/4


7FC7E8CB-7697-480D-8C3D-8B2B8C5F6D5E.jpeg
left white / red right extruder - 4/4

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:15 am

Hi all

Well, in the mean time I also installed the original nozzle for the right extruder. So I'm back to original configuration with clean installed new couplers. The couplers have definitely brought major improvements. On the other side, I think, there's still a slight issue with the left extruder.

IMG_7508D.jpeg
Raise3D PLA 2/5 – white = left & red = right

IMG_7510D.jpeg
Raise3D PLA 3/5 – white = left & red = right

IMG_7514D.jpeg
Raise3D PLA 1/5 – white = left & red = right

IMG_7517.jpeg
Raise3D PLA 4/5 – white = left & red = right

IMG_7518.jpeg
Raise3D PLA 5/5 – white = left & red = right


Any thoughts and help?

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:21 am

An here the original Raise3D spinners directly from USB stick.

IMG_7527.jpeg
white = left & red = right

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:26 pm

Hi all

To eliminate a filament issue, I printed with red filament at left and white filament at right now (still Raise3D PLA and original parts installed). In addition I installed my BRAND NEW SPARE HOTEND to the left extruder.

  • All in all, the printer printed only about 7kg of filament
  • Abount 3kg Nylon/Carbon, with hardened nozzles of course
  • Bought the printer August 2020
  • Currently back to original nozzle configuration and a brand new hotend at left side
  • Two new coupler installed, which did fix the initial issue

IMG_7534D.jpeg
1/5 – red = left (new hotend) / white = right

IMG_7535D.jpeg
2/5 – red = left (new hotend) / white = right

IMG_7536D.jpeg
3/5 – red = left (new hotend) / white = right

IMG_7537D.jpeg
4/5 – red = left (new hotend) / white = right

IMG_7538.jpeg
5/5 – red = left (new hotend) / white = right


Well, the print looks not as I would expect. What do you think?

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:25 pm

Hi Experts

Since I don't now, if the results of the red/white PLA square print test is as expected (did get the gcode, but don't have feedback regarding the test results), I had to move forward last night and did the following tests:

Test 1
  • Installed a 3dSolex Raise3D Everlast Rubin Nozzle 0.40mm Pro2 from Raise3D dealer
  • did the following print test in Polymaker PA6-CF with a profile, with which I had great results in the past (based on Raise3D Open Filament Program)
  • as always, the filament comes directly out of a dryer

PA6CF-3DSolex2.jpeg
PolyMide PA6-CF - 3dSolex Raise3D Everlast Rubin Nozzle 0.40mm

PA6CF-3DSolex1.jpeg
PolyMide PA6-CF - 3dSolex Raise3D Everlast Rubin Nozzle 0.40mm


Result 1:
  • Outer face looks nice, but inner face doesn't look good

Test 2
  • Installed a brand new BROZZL Hardened Steel Nozzle 0.40mm Pro2
  • did the following print test in Polymaker PA6-CF with same profile
  • as always, the filament comes directly out of a dryer

PA6CF-Brozzl-hardened-steel1.jpeg
PolyMide PA6-CF - BROZZL hardened steel 0.4mm

PA6CF-Brozzl-hardened-steel2.jpeg
PolyMide PA6-CF - BROZZL hardened steel 0.4mm


Result 2:
  • Outer face looks nice, but inner face doesn't look good
  • in generell, as already with previous prints, the BROZZL print feels a bit better than the other one

Currently I'm running a final test with a brand new role of Polymaker PolyMide PA6 CF, which was in an oven vor 12h (regarding Poliymaker suggestions) and in addition several hours in a dryer.

new-PA6CF-Brozzl-hardened-steel3.jpeg
Brand new & dryed role of PolyMide PA6-CF


OK, without further support I don't know what to do now. Do I really have to send the 80kg machine to the dealer? :(

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby Jetguy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:49 pm

I'm trying to help but I have hit a a wall. I had the previous N series but not the pro2 series. I studied the pro2 series and did not buy it because of the price and mainly, the bad extruder design with lots of problem. See, the fix on an N series without moving nozzles is put a different compatible and improved hotend like the E3D standardized version with the adapter being the heatsink.

On the Pro2 series with the moving nozzle system, now you have a different and weaker attachment point combined with smaller room physically for the heatsink. The clamp system mounting the entire hotend which not only sets the height of the nozzle but also nozzle position relative in XY to the other nozzle is just a bad idea IMO.

My thought process is, you are testing wrong.
You keep printing dual extrusion prints as a test, and you don't seem to understand how complex and all the variables that can screw up a dual extrusion print. Both nozzles have to be the exact same height. Not close, not good enough, the exact same height. On top of that, the clamp system has to be perfect and so tight that no printing forces of the nozzle striking stuff can bend it's position in XY and then the XY offsets are calibrated. I'm saying this because if the clamp is weak, not tight, broken, it allows the nozzle to possibly get moved in XY or up and down thus making calibration of the offsets and registration of the 2 nozzles impossible.

Given you've taken the nozzles and swapped them multiple times, your hotends are at risk for leaking. But even more than that, they are consumable items and yes, I have a pile of raise3D hotends that eventually the threads in the heater block particularly to the throat tube tend to fail and pull the threads right out of the aluminum block. One of many reasons to switch to a different hotend. But the point is, you think you have a hotend not performing AND because you messed with it, likely the clamp system mounting and the height and XY registration must be recalibrated and if the clamp isn't tight and perfect, your nozzle might be moving after you did or did not calibrate and thus invalidating calibration.

Print quality and volume tests should be done on each nozzle individually, and unless you get up to speed and understand these mechanical system stickups and problems before even attempting dual extrusion prints.

The truth is, you bought the wrong printer, you expect dual extrusion to work like magic, and no that's not reality. Dual extrusion is a gimmick. Yes, you can do it. Yes, given enough skill, time, patience and knowledge, you can do it well all the way until something causes it to fail. This insanely complex lifting nozzle extruder is a failure people. It fails at being a reliable day to day extruder with different materials. It requires constant rebuilds, tweaking, adjusting and new parts all proprietary Rais3D on a regular basis.

Do you think I would have backed filament splicing technology like Mosaic Pallet to use a single extruder printer to do extrusion if I didn't fundamentally believe the entire approach of the Pro2 was flawed?

Again, your problem:
#1 solve single extrusion first. Get your quality right in single extrusion and stop dual extrusion testing during this phase.
#2 Really examine what you have changed, what you loosened and then tightened, but most important, understand the weak points of the entire extruder system.
#3 test and recalibrate both nozzle height and XY registration offsets. After you figure out why the single extrusion was problematic and it's fixed.

innoprint
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Re: Suddenly printing issues -- bumps & cracks

Postby innoprint » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:42 pm

Thank you again, Jetguy, for your helpful inputs. All in all I‘m quite happy with the printer, but if I would not have got your suggestions, the problem would not be solved till now. I would have had shipped it to the dealer. So I’m so happy that you’re supporting us newbies and I’m wondering, why Raise3D is not contributing to solving such issues.

Anyway, good news: I‘m back to production :-)

Since I did not know to interpret the square gcode which I got from my Raise3D dealer, I skipped those test and went back to PA6 CF single extruder configuration.

In the mean time my current 72 hours print is 60% in progress and the quality looks fine again. :) I‘m printing Polymaker Polymide PA6 CF with hardened steel nozzle from BROZZL. This is the configuration with which I finally got the best results and could print some very nice parts in past.

0E9DBBE8-C370-44B1-94A3-B2C071D8BD50.jpeg
:) – back to production – 60% of 72h


Summary:
  • As Jetguy told, I had to exchange the two couplers
  • I got those couplers from my dealer, so I got support as I asked for those couplers, thank you, I‘m appreciating to get stock parts here in Switzerland
  • learned a lot again

My main learning is, to have a look to the couplers in future. In addition it’s very important, to dismount and mount the extruder in hot condition, even if there’s no hint for this in the else very good official documentation from Raise3D. Maybe this learning is also valuable for other Pro2 users.


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