Newbie question about motors

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
RiserDog
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:20 pm

Newbie question about motors

Postby RiserDog » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:14 pm

Well I just got this n2 and I was going thru the buttons in the Utilities tab. There is to the bottom of a circular button with motor icon. I clicked it and it asked me if I wanted to turn the motors off. Yes.

Unable to find a way to turn them back on as the motor icon has an x on it. What motor is it? Is working fairly normally. :x

thanks

Evan
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:07 pm

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Evan » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:29 pm

All motors are turned off. But they are all turned back on the moment you jog any of the axises or use the load/unload function.

Zkronk
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Zkronk » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:30 pm

It's the stepper motors for the Z, X and Y axis (and probably the extruder motor as well) that you turn off with that button.
When the printer is idle the motors consume current to be able to stand still and keep their position. (I think they automatically turn off after a while for saving current and not to build up unnecessary heat.)

The "Disable motors" button is mainly used for when you need to move the print head around by hand without risking damaging the stepper motor driver electronics. And you don't need to manually turn them on again, whenever you start a new print the motors are automatically engaged.

User avatar
dhylands
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:11 pm

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby dhylands » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:41 pm

Zkronk wrote:The "Disable motors" button is mainly used for when you need to move the print head around by hand without risking damaging the stepper motor driver electronics. And you don't need to manually turn them on again, whenever you start a new print the motors are automatically engaged.


If you move the motors around by hand, there is always a risk that you'll damage the stepper motor driver electronics. The key is not to move them too quickly. The steppers act like a generator and the faster you move them, the more voltage you'll generate.

If the voltage you generate is too high, then you will damage the electronics. On my Rambo board, it can generate enough electricity to back power the board momentarily (i.e. with the board completely shut off, I see LEDs lighting up if I move the steppers manually).

User avatar
walshlg
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby walshlg » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:01 pm

ALso, the indicator that steppers are disengaged stays that way until the machine is restarted!

Jetguy
Posts: 2815
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:46 pm

It's not an indicator!!!!
It's a command button, not a status.
Marlin does not have a way to report status for enabled steppers. Thus, there is no way for the front LCD to to know the state.

All the LCD knows is the last state I sent was (pick one), so I toggle the other assuming that's the next logical user action (which isn't always the case).
If you command a move, steppers are automatically enabled.
If you disabled them, fine, they are disabled until another command enables them.
If you sent a disable from the LCD, then the button should change to enable as the next "possible/logical command state".

Again, it is not a status. It simply is the command you send next.

Jetguy
Posts: 2815
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:22 pm

Sorry I didn't mean to shout, I'm just trying to correct this major problem of understanding.
The repeated fault is new folks keep thinking it's a status indicator, and it's not and more importantly, not knowing that means the user does not yet understand the system of 2 boards and the limited protocols between them.

This is fundamental stuff, If you get that piece, then everything else makes sense.
If you don't understand the limited protocols, the fact the front is a sending commands only system and the motion control board follows the commands, then you spend a lot of time wondering what's going on, why's it done that?
A whole lot of folks would be a lot better off if they got these things right now, up front, before using the machine.

lylewaters
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby lylewaters » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:51 pm

I wasn't going to comment about this, but since Jetguy chooses to be a jerk I think I'll respond now.

Here's the thing. Several people now have commented on the slightly confusing aspect of having a motors disable feature that is activated by pressing an icon on the touch panel. It should be noted that this icon changes its look after the feature is activated and does NOT revert back to its previous look.

Many of us that are new to this printer and 3d printing in general didn't understand what exactly this feature is designed to do and through various postings we now know that it temporarily turns off the stepper motors (which means it makes them not hold their position). I learned that this is so we can move the print head freely and probably for some other reasons as well. We also know that sending other commands to the printer (like moving the bed or the print head) will reactivate the stepper motors.

Jetguy seems to think that all of the new people should spend a lot of time reading and learning about their new printers. This isn't a bad idea, but it seems like he thinks that this is required before we buy/use/ask questions about the printer otherwise we are wasting his time and potentially going to damage our printers. Both of those cases might be true, but who is he to require this of new users? Is this his company? Is this HIS "Community"? I think not. He is certainly an asset to this community and has a lot to offer everyone. If we all had the knowledge and passion about these devices as he did, the world would certainly be better off for it.

I think its important for Raise to see the confusion that this feature causes for people who don't have an intimate knowledge of the workings on this printer. If they want to be a world leader in affordable, high quality 3d printing, then they have to be open to the fact that they will have a growing user base that not only includes tinkerers and hobbyists, but also regular people who just want to be able to print things and not have to have an intimate knowledge of this device. Maybe they should consider changing how this feature is activated. Maybe it should be a button and not an icon that changes its look. This would help to reduce the confusion. Why should someone who buys this printer have to know that this is a 2 board system where the touch panel doesn't get any feedback and can't display the active status of certain things? Certainly it can display some real-time information (like the temperature of the heat bed and the hot ends). Some of us just want to buy a printer and use it and not have to be an expert to do so. Remember, this is a printer that you buy off the shelf, completely assembled, not the devices that you would have bought 5 years ago and build yourself.

User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 5742
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:23 am

Hi Lyle,

It should be our thoughtlessness. We will look for a more easy understanding display method or more detailed documents for the printer.

lylewaters
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby lylewaters » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:18 am

Vicky,

You guys are a small company that is growing. You have a great product, an active user community, and employees that care. The right words for you to use here is not "our thoughtlessness". The icon and it's use to disable the motors makes perfect sense to the engineers who designed the system, but for people who aren't intimately familiar with stepper motors and their operation, and the 2 board system, the icon is confusing. We would expect it to toggle between the 2 states much like a mute button. My comments on this matter (and others having similar comments) are really just some feedback to you guys that maybe you should consider changing how this feature is activated.

Zettlinger
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:48 am
Location: Roosendaal, Netherlands

Re: Newbie question about motors

Postby Zettlinger » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:54 pm

"Jetguy seems to think that all of the new people should spend a lot of time reading and learning about their new printers."

Yes and i would pull it broader , ANY appliance someone buys one should FIRST and BEFORE purchase look into what it is, how to use it and what the dangers are.

I often encounter customers that have bought a machine, computer etc and then start banging on it not knowing how to operate it and cursing out the 'bad' machine, instructions etc when it should be their responsibility to know what they are ordering, how to use it and what the DANGERS are

I also saw some people who seem to be first time users ripping a printer apart and then halfway get stuck since they do not know how to alter firmware, how a thermocouple or heater works etc etc. i find this unbelievable, it is very risky and can cost you a machine worth thousands or worse your house and/or lives.


But this is all my personal opinion and i wont fight about it, if one does not agree then i hope that evolution does not try to claim them.

(If it does... well that IS evolution.....)


Return to “Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests