Hot end not heating up fully

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:37 am

Good. I agree. Thanks.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:17 pm

Okay, printing with Bondtech mini on left nozzle. Firmware is 1.1.3. Filament wouldn't melt so I put my finger on it. Guess what? I did not get burned. So interface is reporting 250C and I can put my finger on the nozzle. I was printing a support for the bowden. Part continued to air print to completion after temperature failure.

IMG_4749.JPG


IMG_4744.JPG
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Jetguy
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:50 pm

John, I think you didn't understand. If the reported temp and the set temp are the same value, no controller is going to call that an error condition.
The error check is the heater fails and the temp sensor is working, In this case, the block cools, the sensor tells the heater to turn on, the heater does not turn on and heat the block within X degrees of the setpoint in Y time period. Again, the check is when the heater is told to be on, is there a temp rise within a set time period. If there is not a temp rise or not within the time period, then the heater is assumed not working.

What does the block report before even starting the print?
Does the reported temp change over time?

At this point, yes, you have a failing temp sensor if it reports 250 and is not 250. The telltale is the temp never changes. That generally points at a serious fault.

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:54 pm

Again, from a fresh turn on, what does the left read right now?
As a test, using the menu, set a temp of no more than 100C for the extruder.
Observe the temp rise, assuming the temp started at room temp in the first place.
Move/inspect the wires- specifically the thermocouple near the breakout board.
Again, observe the reported temp during this and ensure spikes or changes do not correlate to moving the thermocouple wiring.

As a note, where they attach to the screw terminals and make a sharp bend, the thermocouple wires could short to each other.
Thermocouple wires are the smaller wires near the front of the printer and breakout board, under the little tab on the printed plastic cover on the breakout board.

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:11 pm

The basic common sense checks whenever we see this problem (incorrect reported temp or non-changing temp) applicable to all 3 printers (N1, N2, N2+), because they all use the same motion board, common firmware, and breakout board.
#1 ensure the ribbon cable from the cable chain or flex tube is fully seated into the breakout board on the side of the extruder. There is no locking connector and this can come loose.
#2 Ensure the thermocouple wires into the screw terminals on the breakout board are not shorted to each other near the screw terminals. The fiberglass insulation can fray and allow the wires to touch and since they make a sharp right angle, can easily short. best to pay careful attention when routing these to prevent this fault.

If you think you have correct reporting, but the heater is not heating, then that fault mostly lies in either the heater cartridge or the larger screw terminals at the back of the breakout board.

Also, mistakes about screw terminals:
#1 Before inserting a wire, unscrew the locking screw counter clockwise several turns until you may hear it click. The reason is that inside, you are pushing a little square hollow block down to align with the hole. If you fail to ensure the block is pushed down, you can accidently push the wire under the block into the gap when the block is up. That means the wire is not properly locked and making a connection.
#2 avoid tinning (soldering) high current wires like heaters as this makes poor contact in screw terminals and can lead to heating and failure of the terminal. I know, it may not be as "pretty" to stick bare wires in, but it makes a huge difference electrically. The best way is crimp ferrules, but that's a part and tool many folks don't have on hand.

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:54 pm

I don't have a temperature probe that will allow the measurements you suggest. I have ordered a K type thermocouple probe for future use. I checked the wiring closely and there are no shorts at that point. Ribbon cable did not move when pressure was applied. I have also closely checked that the heater terminals.

One thing of note is that restarting the machine via the control panel or the physical switch clears the problem up -- for a while. Sometimes I can print for hours before a "temp failure".

From a fresh start-up, the left and right both read room temp -- or thereabouts. When the print is working correctly, the temp varies on the control panel a bit -- usually dipping a degree. When it is not working, the temp is steady at 250C.

Didn't know about the tinning. Thanks.

From what you have written, I would say that the fault possibly has to do with the heater cartridge. Temps are being reported correctly up to the point that there is a failure. I'll start with swapping the left and right heaters. If that doesn't do it, then I'll swap the thermocouples. If that doesn't do it, well, I don't know...
Last edited by JohnSays on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Jetguy
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:01 pm

I'm not asking you to make an external temp measurement. I believe you have an intermittent short/fault and the bet is, it's right there at the screw terminals well hidden under your cover on the breakout board.

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:03 pm

Again, what I said as a test is #1 not use 250C as a setpoint since for whatever reason, that is your stuck reported temp, and #2 ensure a slow steady rise to temp, and then move the suspected wiring and validate no spikes in reported temp happens.

firesped
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby firesped » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:09 pm

maybe you should post a picture of the back of the small board, if the issue is there, it may help to identify it.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
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Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:52 pm

Okay, I unscrewed the breakout board and then I set the temperature to 100C. While heating, I moved the board around to wiggle the wires. I also wiggled each heater and thermocouple wire. No spikes. Just a clean ride up to 100. I then set it to 200 and did the same thing. No spikes. I'll send the pictures in a bit. Have to take a break for some business.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:24 pm

Back of the board

IMG_4769.JPG
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:08 pm

I just switched the thermocouplers. When I did a load of the eSun ABS+ at 250C the Bondtech started a version of the clicking: It pulls the filament and the filament pops back to where it was but a little less. Melted filament comes out of the nozzle in a faster-then-slower jerky movement just as it is going in that way. I tightened the thumb screw on the Bondtech all the way with no difference to the jerkyness.

So, while that is odd enough, the really odd thing is that now that I have started a print, the filament is going in nice and smoothly and the print is printing.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:40 am

Well I swapped the thermocouples and that didn't help. So next I swapped the heaters and that didn't work. Then I thought, "What changes have I made that could be affecting this?" A long list starting with the Bondtech upgrade came into my mind. Then I remembered that I read a doc posted in another thread about adjusting voltages:

2016-07-07_21-28-56.jpg


I had adjusted the second driver down to .612 vdc. So I set it back to the .986 vdc it was at when I first checked it. Now my ABS+ melts perfectly. What put me on to this was that my PLA was melting perfectly at 250C and it should not have. I could not get the ABS+ to melt except just a little and the eSun cleaner filament would also barely melt. After I reverted the voltage, the ABS+ and eSun cleaner both melted easily and the PLA was downright runny. So I decided to try another print. That print is right now looking very good.

So, next step is to put the swapped heaters and thermocouples back to where they were and see if I can still print. If setting that voltage to 0.6 was really the culprit, then those instructions really need to be pulled from the thread.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Jetguy
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:29 am

Count me out. After that statement, I cannot offer help anymore. What you just said, it's so wrong, I cannot begin to write a statement to correct the errors.

Seriously! Take a few minutes, read what you wrote, and then explain how a stepper driver current setting has anything to do with a heater?
Sorry for some tough love, but you need it right now, as I question if you really listened and learned from all I've ever tried to explain to you.

Jetguy
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:46 am

To give you some idea of what you just said, here is the same story in terms of a house.
You just said turning down your ceiling fan speed control, changed the temperature inside your oven, because both use the same breaker panel in your house.

The 2 circuits are not connected in any way, other than the main 24V power supply powers both of them. Not even in the same ballpark.

Further, by ignoring the instructions, by ignoring why you were even told to turn down the stepper current to not potentially let the motor which is no longer heatsinked to metal to potentially melt or damage your brand new Bondtech nylon parts.

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:14 am

John, Sorry for flying off the handle.
I'm frustrated you are having problems.
I'm trying to give you the best advice I personally use myself. I spent quite a bit of money to upgrade both my N1 and N2 to dual Bondtech extruders (that's 4 right there), and 3 other printers in my house are also running Bondtech extruders now.

But Bondtech feeder has NOTHING to do with the hotend. They are separate sub systems of the printer. Feeding plastic and motor drives is not part of the temperature control section.

What concerns me more, is you questioned proven advice others gave you and without even asking or understanding what you are changing, you then tell the group the instructions need changed???

Again, I want to see you fix this, but you have to listen to instructions. We don't make this stuff up for our health.
I really think you need some local help. Unfortunately, I'm more than a day's drive away.

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:35 am

I've told John at Raise3D I want to return it. I'm spending all my time just trying to get it to do what it was supposed to right out of the box.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

firesped
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby firesped » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:01 pm

I don't think they are any 3D printers out there that work right out of the box, yet anyways. This printer is still fairly new to market. Most of the people here hare literally beta testers for this printer as kickstarter backers. Jetguy is one of the top seasoned pros in the 3D printer work who builds his own custom printers. I think he has one that has a print area of 1 meter cube.

I've spent a ton of time on my printer. Everytime I get a clog, I have to tear the bondtech apart to make sure it isn't ruined. fortunately with my current mods, it has not been ruined for a while.

The early models came with V1 Hotends that had a issue with nozzle design. The V2 works on fixing that issue but it is not perfect either. There is an airflow design issue with the main electronics, that people either modified their printers and printed out a new part the team at raise3d designed. The stock feeding system has major issues and a solution by raise3d has not come about yet. Trhuster pioneered the bondtech upgrade that many of us have spent the money on to fix the feeding issues. Back to the electronics, there is any issue with the stock X-Y stepper drivers getting too hot and causing print shifts.

Was this printer going to work right out of the box? yes and no.

looking at this article on incorrect extruder temps on another board.

from the ultimaker forms, a person was having an issue where the hotend was reading at 211 C with it being off.

the reply was this,

There is a small circuit board on the print head. There are 3 wires. One is ground - should be 0V. One is 5V power. The third reports back the temperature to the board underneath the UM. It should report 0V for 0C and 5v for 500C and 200mV for 20C (room temperature). Measure that voltage and make sure it is correct.

You may have a bad thermocouple or the little board on the head could be defective also.


since you switched out the thermocouple and still had the same problem, That means your issue is in the small board, the cable or the main board. based on the statement that PLA melts perfectly at 250C sounds like your system is reading 50C off from what it is supposed to be. The issue seems to be random as well. As it can ready 250C and the hotend may be completely off.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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JohnSays
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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Thanks for the thorough post firesped. I agree that it is time to look deeper. I have a tech support call scheduled with Raise3D this afternoon. I want this machine to work, but I am at the end of my return window. It actually arrived put together incorrectly and so, not knowing that, this whole venture started out on a bad foot.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Hot end not heating up fully

Postby JohnSays » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:41 pm

After 3 hours on the phone with Levy (not sure I spelled his name correctly) in CA, I have the printer printing with PLA. Now near the end of a Benchy, the print looks perfect with Bondtech and PLA at 215C using stock profile for PLA and Step-E at 140. We took everything apart: the thermocouple and heater wires extracted, inspected, and reseated. Took the hot ends apart, cleaned them and reinstalled. I set motor voltages back to 0.612 vdc. Two things stood out: (1) a thermocouple wire for the left nozzle was not fully seated, and (2) the nozzle would not extrude a nice 0.4mm stream of ooze of PLA. We decided the nozzle was dirty and swapped it for the right nozzle which did indeed ooze nicely.

I have to say that Levy and Tammy in CA as well as John in China have been super and I really appreciate their help. Levy took things one step at a time in an ordered fashion and was fun to talk with while I was working on my given tasks. These people really do care and I want to acknowledge that care here in public. Thank you very much. Tammy patiently acquired from me the information that would help Levy debug the problem and John has been great helping me directly with the earlier problems. Too bad there have been so many problems, but I also have to say that I have now learned a lot about this 3D printer that I would not have had there been no problems.. I now have no back-off working with hot ends to inspect or clean them.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head


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