Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

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dsiegfried
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Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:06 pm

I upgraded the hotends on my N1 to the V2.
This was supposed to be compatible with 3rd party PLA but I'm still getting air printing a lot of the time.

Sometimes if I stop the print, unload the filament and reload it and start it over, the print will complete.
But at least half the time I'm getting air printing with standard PLA and this is with the V2 PLA settings in the latest version of IdeaMaker 2.2.0

I have tried raising the temperature to 220 - 230 and sometimes the print goes to completion then, but I am still getting air prints sometimes even at 230.
I have also tried reducing the retraction amount to 0.8 and still sometimes getting air printing.

This is getting frustrating and it doesn't seem like the V2 is meeting it's promise of compatibly with standard PLA.

I hope someone can help me with a permanent fix for this, as I am considering purchasing an N2 Plus but not until this is solved!

DarrenN2
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby DarrenN2 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:19 pm

I had the same issue and tried some of the same settings changes that you mentioned in your post.

What worked for me was to reduce the flow rate to 90% down from 100%. I think I may have also reduce the layer print speed to 50mm/sec and the fill print speed to 60mm/sec.

I would probably keep retraction at 1mm to avoid stringing.

Good luck.

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John@Raise3D
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby John@Raise3D » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:28 pm

Can you please share some pictures of the completed prints and failed ones? That will help us to identify the cause.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:32 am

Here are 3 failed prints and one finished print in the upper right.
4 prints.jpg

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John@Raise3D
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby John@Raise3D » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:57 am

What is the layer height you are using? Any change in settings, other than temperature and retraction.
If with our PLA, it should be around 205C.
If with 3rd party PLA, try starting at 195C.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:02 am

For this particular print, the layer height is 100 microns.
Temperature 215 - 220c

195c seems very low to me, I have 5 3D printers and I have never printed below 205c
Generally in the past for the N1 I always get better results by increasing the temperature, to as much as 230c to prevent this.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:06 am

DarrenN2,
I just tried your suggestion of 90% flow rate and the print got about half way and then air printing again.
I had the speed up around 70 though. What temperature are you using?

MikeWall
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby MikeWall » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:23 am

Besides choosing the V2 filament profile.
Also change in IdeaMaker under the "printer" tab "Current Type of Printer" to "RAISE3D N1 - V2 Hot End"
N2 KS-Raise3d'er

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:51 am

Which brand of PLA are you using? 230 is too high for almost all the 3rd party PLA.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:19 am

I am using MakeShaper PLA, an excellent brand manufactured in the U.S.
230c is not necessarily too high for PLA, depending on the machine and the speed you are running at.
I have 5 3D printers, depending on which one I sometimes run around 220-225c and occasionally as high as 230 depending on the machine and what speed I'm running at.
At high speeds, the filament doesn't spend much time in the hotend so even though the hotend is at 230 the filament never reaches that temperature.

Also, Raise PLA filament even lists the printing temp as 210-230 right on the label. So I don't understand why now John is saying to drop the temp all the way down to 205, that doesn't make sense. If the hotend jams the normal thing to do is raise the temperature to increase the flow rate, not drop it.

OK I have now tried running this print again at 195c and it jammed even sooner than before. I then tried it at 200c and it jammed again.

Mike Wall, thanks but I already changed the "Current Type of Printer" to "RAISE3D N1 - V2 Hot End". That was the first thing I did after installing the V2.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:56 am

Please advise the version of your ideaMaker, motion controller board firmware, touch screen firmware.

Would you like to share some pictures of your hotend. There maybe some leakage. Need to check.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:44 am

Here is a screen shot of the version numbers, and a photo of the hotend.

I just updated to the recent firmware N1-1.1.1 and I am trying another print now.
The PLA I am using runs best around 210 on all of my equipment, for normal speeds.

Raise3D_Screen.jpg
Raise3D_Hotend.jpg

DarrenN2
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby DarrenN2 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:46 am

dsiegfried wrote:DarrenN2,
I just tried your suggestion of 90% flow rate and the print got about half way and then air printing again.
I had the speed up around 70 though. What temperature are you using?


I ended up lowering my temp to 205C and the print speed down to 50mm/sec on layer speed and 60mm/sec on infill.

It worked for me and before that every print was an incomplete air print.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby Julia Truchsess » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:31 pm

Does it fail with feeder clicking, or with feeder slipping? I agree with others who suggest using 205º as your starting baseline. Jamming in the throat tube due to expansion can be a problem with all-metal hot ends, and higher temperature will make this worse.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:11 pm

It is Feeder clicking.
I tried 195 and 200 and it only made the problem worse--the feeder clicking started on the second layer.
At these low temps the PLA is extruding with a dull finish that doesn't look good and first layer adhesion is not as good.

I have already nailed the optimum temp for this PLA to be 210 for the best retraction and smooth surface.
In the past when this happened, I was able to make the prints go to completion by incrementally raising the temp to 215 or 220.

I tried all the suggestions mentioned previously and still getting incomplete prints. So I tried a different brand of PLA, FoxSmart, and this time the print completed. It seems that there is a compatibility issue with the MakeShaper brand.

I believe it is the 100 micron layer height coupled with the brand of filament and the all-metal hotend.

I wonder if anyone else has tried the MakeShaper PLA with this machine.

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Raizer04
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby Raizer04 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:17 pm

Well i can tell you that I have tried foxsmart and it is a very good filament. I got fed up with guessing which filaments work and just bit the bullet and bought a bondtec extruder. I think raise3d needs to reinvestigate this whole jamming thing.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:19 am

What troubles dsiegfried is MakeShaper not FoxSmart.

theRenegade
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby theRenegade » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:19 pm

Another possible cause could be a wrong initial Z-height (bed to near to the nozzle).

You can check this with a 0.2mm feeler gauge after homing the Z-axis (do this with a cold nozzle). Unlock the steppers (disable motors function) and move the extruder to the middle of the bed. Then check if a 0.2 shim fits between nozzle and bed. If it doesn't fit, adjust the home position then retry printing with the default settings.

dsiegfried
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby dsiegfried » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:12 am

It's not the Z-height. I know how to properly level the bed. The parts are printing fine until after a number of layers, then starts air printing.
Besides, I can print other filaments like ABS and PETG to completion every time.
The problem is compatibility with some 3rd party PLA filaments.

I just tried a print with Verbatim red PLA at 205 and I got air printing with that brand as well. Verbatim is another very good brand.
I did get the Verbatim print to work after a second try at 210 and with a drop of oil on the filament at the beginning.

I got the V2 specifically for printing 3rd party PLA, that was the promise and if I had known it didn't really solve that issue I might not have bothered. Now I want to get another one of the larger Raise3D printers but I am holding off because I am concerned about doing larger prints in PLA and having them fail after many hours.

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walshlg
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Re: Still getting Air Printing with V2 & PLA

Postby walshlg » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:00 pm

May I suggest -> If you are still having this problem, try insulating the hotends. I find that is crucial with PLA,

I also leave the side door cracked open.

I've noticed that pretty much all pla goes bad eventually. Not sure why but it gets very brittle. Some folks have luck by putting it in a big zip-lock bag with some desiccant for a couple of weeks indicating that water adsorption might be part of the problem


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