Project Bondtech Extruder

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:18 pm

walshlg wrote:super job. What do you think the layering problem is at the bow?


With a closer inspection from what i can see i think need to tune up the extrusion abit. It is the first time i print with all those filament and i am to lazy to do a calibration cube for all those filamnet atm. I can go back and do a proper extrusion calibration and reprint it when all boats are done.

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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Evan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:12 pm

Can you share the bondtech printed extruder mount?

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Derek@Raise3D
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Derek@Raise3D » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:26 am

@Trhuster, You have done a great work. A small problem here needs to be mentioned. As the acceleration is not so big here, so you might not able to catch the speed you set with such a small model.
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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:27 am

Evan wrote:Can you share the bondtech printed extruder mount?


I am not sure if i am allowed to share the files. But if you order the kit from Bondtech he will give you the files so you can print them! :)

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/kits/bondtec ... gears.html

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:36 am

Derek@Raise3D wrote:@Trhuster, You have done a great work. A small problem here needs to be mentioned. As the acceleration is not so big here, so you might not able to catch the speed you set with such a small model.


I know that Derek, thats why i started testing with that cylinder to be able to reach higher speeds.The boats is more a test to see if V2 hotend and Bontech extruder can print all those filament that have. :) But as i wrote earlier in the thread i feel that something is holding it back.

What is the max speed for X/Y. If i read the firmware right speed up to 300mm/s should be max? And extruder speed max is only 25mm/s?

#define DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE {300, 300, 5, 25} // (mm/sec)

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:09 am

Trhuster wrote:
Evan wrote:Can you share the bondtech printed extruder mount?


I am not sure if i am allowed to share the files. But if you order the kit from Bondtech he will give you the files so you can print them! :)

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/kits/bondtec ... gears.html



I can share the case for the break out board though, it is my own design. :) I think it can be better but good enough for now.

https://pinshape.com/items/21341-3d-pri ... board-case

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Last edited by Trhuster on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Derek@Raise3D
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Derek@Raise3D » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:24 am

Trhuster wrote:
Derek@Raise3D wrote:@Trhuster, You have done a great work. A small problem here needs to be mentioned. As the acceleration is not so big here, so you might not able to catch the speed you set with such a small model.


I know that Derek, thats why i started testing with that cylinder to be able to reach higher speeds.The boats is more a test to see if V2 hotend and Bontech extruder can print all those filament that have. :) But as i wrote earlier in the thread i feel that something is holding it back.

What is the max speed for X/Y. If i read the firmware right speed up to 300mm/s should be max? And extruder speed max is only 25mm/s?

#define DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE {300, 300, 5, 25} // (mm/sec)


extruder speed is exactly the extruder speed by feeding material. 1.75mm filament get through a hole of 0.4mm, the actual extrusion speed =(1.75/2)*(1.75/2) /((0.4/2)*(0.4/2)) * extrusion speed = approximately 19x extrusion speed. So it's not the extrusion speed limits you from getting fast.

The things that truly locks the speed is the acceleration settings. N series don't have a very high acceleration, that means in a same length you might not achieve the highest speed then you just need to deceleration. A very long straight line will help you to achieve higher speed. Or you can turn up the jerk settings from 12mm/s to 20mm/s or even 30mm/s to make the extruder not decrease it's speed to a lower value.
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:10 am

Derek@Raise3D wrote:
Trhuster wrote:
Derek@Raise3D wrote:@Trhuster, You have done a great work. A small problem here needs to be mentioned. As the acceleration is not so big here, so you might not able to catch the speed you set with such a small model.


I know that Derek, thats why i started testing with that cylinder to be able to reach higher speeds.The boats is more a test to see if V2 hotend and Bontech extruder can print all those filament that have. :) But as i wrote earlier in the thread i feel that something is holding it back.

What is the max speed for X/Y. If i read the firmware right speed up to 300mm/s should be max? And extruder speed max is only 25mm/s?

#define DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE {300, 300, 5, 25} // (mm/sec)


extruder speed is exactly the extruder speed by feeding material. 1.75mm filament get through a hole of 0.4mm, the actual extrusion speed =(1.75/2)*(1.75/2) /((0.4/2)*(0.4/2)) * extrusion speed = approximately 19x extrusion speed. So it's not the extrusion speed limits you from getting fast.

The things that truly locks the speed is the acceleration settings. N series don't have a very high acceleration, that means in a same length you might not achieve the highest speed then you just need to deceleration. A very long straight line will help you to achieve higher speed. Or you can turn up the jerk settings from 12mm/s to 20mm/s or even 30mm/s to make the extruder not decrease it's speed to a lower value.


Thx for explanation about extruder speed calculations.

About speed, i use single layer vase mode in Simplify3d so acceleration settings should not be the problem here. It is a continuously long spiral with X/Y/Z at the same time. No stop and starts untill the end ofcourse. But if acceleration is in play even in vase mode you have right it will mess with top speed.

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:13 am

If you watch this video, how fast do you think it moves? Full speed at 45 sec in the clip.

https://youtu.be/b82RQ4lZXlw

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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:23 pm

So new day and some new boats.

Observations, no strings but i same ringing as the other boats ect. Chimney needed more cooling or lower temp or slower speed. No lift from bed. I don't know if i like how this filamnet looks or not. Not bad but not great either imo.

The Eumaker spool that can be a coathanger is just so bad. And it does not fit on the N1 spool holder. Easy to print a new one but still annoying.

Filament: Eumakers PLA
Hotend Temp: 210C
Bed Temp: 60C
Layers: 0.2
Speed: 80mm/s, outline 50%, Speed Overrides 5sec 50%
Retraction Speed 90mm/s
Retraction Distance 1.4mm
Simplify3d suggested time 37m
Real time: 58m

Full size picture: http://i.imgur.com/AJYlijK.jpg

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:41 pm

So now we are back from where i started print with Dupliactor 4 for 3 years ago and i this is the Wanhao spool from that time. Also with Clone R1 i hade to use 240c and oil to get it to print. V2 hotend however printed it like boss at 200c! :) Photo with flash on white, ehh...

Observations, no strings but i same ringing as the other boats ect. No chimeny problem. No lift from bed. I really likes how this came out, surface is matt and i like that.

Does not fit on the N1 spool holder.

Filament: Wanhao PLA
Hotend Temp: 200C
Bed Temp: 60C
Layers: 0.2
Speed: 80mm/s, outline 50%, Speed Overrides 5sec 50%
Retraction Speed 90mm/s
Retraction Distance 1.4mm
Simplify3d suggested time 37m
Real time: 58m

Full size picture: http://i.imgur.com/8Oy7DbU.jpg

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:48 pm

Time for Raise3D PLA. This was real intresting, this PLA is real sensitive about the cooling. One side is matt and other semi shiny! I like the matt side but i think you guys already know how i want my prints to look like. :)

Observations, no strings but i same ringing as the other boats ect. Chimeny needed more time or cooling. No lift from bed.

Filament: Raise3D PLA
Hotend Temp: 200C
Bed Temp: 60C
Layers: 0.2
Speed: 80mm/s, outline 50%, Speed Overrides 5sec 50%
Retraction Speed 90mm/s
Retraction Distance 1.4mm
Simplify3d suggested time 37m
Real time: 58m

Full size pictures: http://i.imgur.com/oEnscOe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4ga1GqT.jpg

Image

Image
Last edited by Trhuster on Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:43 pm

Observations, no strings but i same ringing as the other boats ect. Chimeny is ok. No lift from bed.
Spool does fit on the N1 spool holder. No problems printing it but i don't like it. To shiny, feels cheap.

Filament: 3DPrima PLA
Hotend Temp: 200C
Bed Temp: 60C
Layers: 0.2
Speed: 80mm/s, outline 50%, Speed Overrides 5sec 50%
Retraction Speed 90mm/s
Retraction Distance 1.4mm
Simplify3d suggested time 37m
Real time: 58m

Full size picture: http://i.imgur.com/Km0jWWO.jpg

Image

Zettlinger
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Zettlinger » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:47 pm

For the red raise3d pla, it did not fit on the spoolholder ??

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:57 pm

Zettlinger wrote:For the red raise3d pla, it did not fit on the spoolholder ??


LOL, too much copy paste going on. Thx for pointing it out. :)

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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby rlballard » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:40 pm

Tr,
That is a great video, awesome speed, are you attributing that to the extruder? You are making me want to switch mine over to Bondtech....
I'm thinking about the QR for both left hand and universal for dual extrusion. Just another consideration, it seems as though the vast majority of printers mount their extruders outside of the box, if we did that and extended the control wires why would that not work and take weight off of the gantry....
Just some thoughts...

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Derek@Raise3D
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Derek@Raise3D » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:59 am

Trhuster wrote:If you watch this video, how fast do you think it moves? Full speed at 45 sec in the clip.

https://youtu.be/b82RQ4lZXlw

This is fast. I think it achieved the speed you set. As every time the speed vector not change too much.
It looks around 70-100mm/s
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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:13 am

rlballard wrote:Tr,
That is a great video, awesome speed, are you attributing that to the extruder? You are making me want to switch mine over to Bondtech....
I'm thinking about the QR for both left hand and universal for dual extrusion. Just another consideration, it seems as though the vast majority of printers mount their extruders outside of the box, if we did that and extended the control wires why would that not work and take weight off of the gantry....
Just some thoughts...


The smaller drive gears adds more torque and the dual driven drive gears that "hugs" the filmanet will make sure it is no filament slipping or deformations problems. Also nice to have a spring on one off the drive gears so same pressure is applied on the filament even if the filament is not perfect 1.75mm. I have a bad roll off filament that is from 1.7mm to 1.8mm that i will test with soon, it made my Clone R1 choke.

I would be intrested to see how bowden would work on Rasie3D. :) I have always stayed away fom bowden setups because off so many have feeding problems and use retraction around 6mm from what i have read. But less weight off a bowden setup is always very nice, and even more so on a dual setup. Every stepper motor with drive gear weight is around 270 gram. If you go for it please make a thread about your findings!

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:32 am

Derek@Raise3D wrote:
Trhuster wrote:If you watch this video, how fast do you think it moves? Full speed at 45 sec in the clip.

https://youtu.be/b82RQ4lZXlw

This is fast. I think it achieved the speed you set. As every time the speed vector not change too much.
It looks around 70-100mm/s



Ok, speed is set to 160mm/s in Simplify3d. I also checked the g-code and it is correct. But spiral movement is made off G1 short lines (vectors) as you say so i guess firmware slows it down then.

So my conclusion is that extruder can handle Raise3D top speed with room to spare without problems, atleast with ABS. I will test this with PLA too as it is abit harder to feed. In my normal prints i would never print this fast because i like perfect prints before fast speed prints. But it is nice to know the limits. :)

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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:41 am

Derek@Raise3D wrote:
Trhuster wrote:If you watch this video, how fast do you think it moves? Full speed at 45 sec in the clip.

https://youtu.be/b82RQ4lZXlw

This is fast. I think it achieved the speed you set. As every time the speed vector not change too much.
It looks around 70-100mm/s


I don't know why i did not calculate the real speed myself before. :? Anyway, the cylinder is 100mm/dia*3.14=314mm. I clocked 10 revolutions and time was 25sec.

So 3140/25=125.6mm/s

True speed is 125.6mm/s and that means that i extruded around 15mm³/s. Pretty good numbers from what i have read. Ultimaker guys is very happy if they can make it to 10mm³/s. :lol: Sure they use bowden so not real fair to compare with direct drive extruder.

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/4976 ... ing?page=7


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