Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
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rlballard
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby rlballard » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:37 am

Charles, Thanks....
I have to say that I am becoming a huge fan of BondTech I have only done 6 prints since the total switch Friday night and not a single hickup, it just feeds whatever is stuffed into it. I first started working at speed running 80mm/s - 90mm/s and not a problem. I backed off to 50mm/s to see the difference and there really wasn't any in quality. I never had that experience with the original setup and, I know it is early, I have not had any issues with nozzle clogs as several more experienced users also found. I have run the following material since the switch:

[*]ABS
[*]PLA
[*]PLA/PHA

And currently running Algix Dura at 70mm/s 0.2mm Layer Height...

They provide the provide you with more that enough cable, I just slid it through one of the vent holes I taped over. I am currently running 0.9 volts output to the stepper and don't have any heat issues as of yet.

20160702_232226.jpg


Yes I know, I have Painter Tape over the vents, that is only temporary until I forget that it's there...
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20160702_232401 (Medium).jpg

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:36 pm

I would not say I am experienced, but I have found my issues are more due to my environment then the bondtech.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
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rlballard
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby rlballard » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:14 am

Everyday that I run this BondTech conversion I am more and more happy, not a hiccup....

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:04 am

Are there instructions somewhere for modifying an N2 dual extruder to use the BondTech parts?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:28 am

I'm assuming that the holes in the bottom of the BondTech mini slide over the guide tubes in the Raise3D nozzle head. Problem is that I am applying so much force to get the screws on the side aligned that it just does not seem right. Seems to me that the guide tubes are bottoming in the Bondtech before the screws holes line up. I'd like to take a drill bit and trim a bit off the bottom of the plastic in the left feed hole of the BondTech or slice a bit from the top of the protruding guide tube. Am I on the right track to want to do that?

I can get the screw on the right to go in, but it torques the Bondtech so that it sits at an angle on top of the nozzle head and the left screw is off by about 1/8 inch.

I thought it best to ask those who have gone before.

IMG_4734.JPG
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Zkronk
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Zkronk » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:58 am

I had to cut off those plastic tubes about 1 mm with a knife to be able to push down the extruder enough for the screw holes to line up.

I don't think that is a issue if you want to mount the original extruder back again.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:16 am

Just cut off at minimal as possible, use a cross tip screw driver to shape and taper the entrance hole. You want as minimal gap as possible and a smooth guide path if you ever want to feed Nijaflex or other soft filaments.

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:11 pm

Thanks guys.

Has anyone written instructions for modifying an N2 dual extruder?

Is there a firmware patch for 1.1.3? If not, do I need a patch or just make a change in settings?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

treisner
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby treisner » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:50 pm

I had the same problem. I couldn't find a 6mm drill bit, so I used a 15/64 inch and reamed out the holes by hand and made them deep enough for the tubes.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:44 pm

#1 Everyone, Bondtech or not had better load the latest firmware 1.1.3 or whatever it moves to in the next few days. There are KEY safety and reliability fixes (pause) in that firmware. I cannot stress enough, a few of the problems folks have had in the last couple of days would benefit from safety in this firmware. If you heater cartridge fails mid print (or the wiring, or anything heat related) instead of air printing forever, this should trip a heater decoupled error now in 1.1.3.
#2 Beyond that, for single extrusion using the left primary extruder, the fix is to either modify flowrate or edit star gcode in the slicer and enter the M92 command with the specific axis change steps per mm.
Example, M92 E140
#3 I think for second right extruders using a QR extruder, they do require either the custom branch that allows independent change for dual extruders (I think Firespeed did this) or you compile from my source code I linked for a direct change in firmware.

Let's explain the difference in concepts.
If you use my firmware changes, I'm changing steps per mm in the core function of firmware. This means that load script will load the same speed as before, even though the motor is changed. Flowrate is still 100%, you don't do anything outside of normal tuning in software or gcode. It's just now made for Bondtech and to you and the software, everything just works like normal. I have only published the source code, meaning you have to make the firmware from source.

If you go the flowrate change route. That means that when the stock firmware reads your gcode and sees the extrusion distances in gcode, it modifies them by the percentage and you basically fudge factor the change in steps per mm. The downside is, load speed is now slower because this does not affect speed of a script. Flowrate is also temporary. You set it, and if you restart the printer, it defaults back to 100% Or if gcode from S3D or your slicer sets it in a print, then that overrides any setting you made before the print.
So while flowrate works and requires no firmware changes, I think it only works for left primary extruder as is on stock firmware.

If you use the gcode M92 change steps per mm at the start of a print, it's also temporary and resets if the controller resets or is power cycled. It only affects the left primary extruder on stock firmware and doesn't work for the right (that's my understanding).
Again, load script will be slower since unless you send a M92 before and switch the current logical steps per mm in memory, it's all just temporary.

There is another alternate firmware that fixes the G92 command so it can work on the right secondary extruder. I just have to ask (and sorry to the developers) why if you are changing firmware, just not code the correct value?? In other words, it's a firmware that still requires a gcode change to implement. I can see 2 sides to that argument, for tuning, you want to be able to adjust and not compile firmware each time, but I don't think the users are actually using it that way.

And, there are 2 different options for the right extruder.
If you use the Bondtech mini, non-geared extruder as a Bowden drive, retain your stock right motor, and just buy the $55 gear set and print your own housing, then steps per mm is the same for left and right since the same feeder parts are used. If this is your setup, then stock firmware with a G92 change might work just sending alternate start.gcode. I don't know that for sure, but since the firmware used the same specification for both extruders, I think this is how it works.

If you use the recommended QR 5:1 geared extruder, then it has a vastly different steps per mm (almost 5X more) I think 497 or so.
So, again, using the flowrate mods that Raise 3D suggests, feeding that Bowden during load filament could be really slow, 5X slower than normal. This is why I recommend my branch of directly changing the firmware axis steps per mm hard coded, such that all scripts, functions and basic operation are totally oblivious to the hardware change.

But as I said, I posted source changes because I have not yet been able to test and validate my code, let alone compile a bunch of versions (N1, N2, N2+, then single or dual) to meet the needs and test and validate them for all users.

Just trying to point out all the options, how the different methods interact and what is different about the different methods.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:30 pm

Sorry I think I misspoke. I think the other fix is M221 to adjust flowrate. Just throwing that in there as informational.

Either way, I'm just trying to explain how and what. The workarounds without firmware changes are just that. They are easy for testing right after you install the Bondtech hardware. They could be used on a daily basis, but my concern is that they have impact to loading and other functions that may or may not be important to the user. And, again, the very temporary aspect since this is in memory only, not a permanent setting. You pretty much permanently changed the hardware, but temporarily adjusted the printer function to match it.

Now I also get, long term, every time a firmware update comes out, now we are talking a separate custom branch from mainline firmware. In my mind, this is just a single line of 2 values changing in config. h and making new firmware, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:17 pm

I put my firmware on github. It is based on the 1.1.3 firmware. my firmware introduces a hybrid mode setting in the gcode T command, based on what myself and socke came up with. I've been running it for a couple of days but I haven't tested the new gcode command yet. M992, which allows for the hybrid settings to be altered during a print.

I went over my code with my brother and fixed the issues I had with it. so it now has changable variables.

I've been putting the safety controls in my firmwares for a while so it is nice that it is in by default.

The concept is, when you change the tool using the T command, it sets the extruder settings for the Tool you set it to.

the filament load commands call the T command and set the proper speeds for the steppers.

I need to check and modify some other settings, to make sure I am not overriding flow rate and feed rates with my firmware.

It would help to know what commands are called by those functions on the tune screen
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:30 pm

firesped: I looked on GitHub but do not know how to find what you uploaded. I have downloaded and clean compiled the Raise3D 1.1.3 version. I am looking for a firmware that will use the Bondtech mini and bowden QR.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:36 pm

John, just a tip, walk before you run.
I don't know that the first night you put this together, the first print you have to do is a dual extrusion print right?
So, rather than haul off and worry about dual extrusion before you've even done single extrusion with the left extruder, just insert the M92 E140 in the starting gcode of Ideamaker and take the left extruder for a test drive?

More than happy to provide plug and play custom firmware after I test it this week. Heck, that might be as soon as Thursday. Until then, run single, run the stock firmware you loaded and just get a feel for the new left extruder.
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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:47 pm

Thanks JetGuy. I've run several left only extruder prints. I haven't gotten one right yet! I put the value 140 in the Printer settings Step-E per mm field. I'm just printing calibration boxes now. My first print of something I can use will be the bowden bracket. Then I will want to try the right extruder too.

So, while the calibration boxes print I fiddle with the other things I will need to understand: such as the Arduino IDE. I've already spent a little time in some of the code to get a sense of how things work.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:33 am

What's not right about the left extruder prints?
Did you also adjust the driver current down to prevent the motor from getting hot over time?
I'm doubting not adjusting vref is the cause, but again, an important step in getting this right.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:49 am

I think I have figured it out and I don't need to play with anything. looks like feed rate is using M220, which sets the feedmultiply. and flow rates are using M221, which sets extruder_multiply. They are not settings that the hybrid tool change command is messing with so those functions on the touchscreen should not be compromised. (hence my concern over it).

note to john, in ideamaker. under printer menu. click on printer settings.
on the step-e per MM setting, if you put in 140.00 in that field. it will add the M92 E140 command to the gcode.

everything that is being done by my code can be done other ways with gcode. the issues being that ideamaker is not currently setup with multiple step-e / mm settings for both extruders. If it was, every time you switch tools, you would send a M92 command with the proper step e.

the bigger issue at the moment is having each extruder have their own retraction settings, including for tool change.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:40 am

Jetguy: I adjusted both the top and second controllers to 0.612 vdc
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:43 am

firesped: Different retractions can be done using Simplyfy3D.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:47 am

Jetguy: I think this photo shows it best. eSun ABS+ printed at 250C on 110C bed. 0.20 layer, 3 shells, 60 mm/s, 100% fill density @ 70 mm/s. Retraction enabled: 50mm/s speed, 2.0 mm retract amount, force retract on layer change. Infill flowrate is 105% and other flowrates are 100%.
I don't know how to look at this box and tell what I need to change. I have slowed the printing down from 90 mm/s and that helped but not a lot. I'm going to slow it back down to what I had using the Raise3D extruder.

IMG_4743.JPG


Well I slowed it down to the same speed I was printing with the Raise3D extruder and the print looks much better. The only problem now is that each corner sticks out about .25mm. So there is extra material at each corner OR too little material on the walls. Btw, I removed retraction altogether.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head


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