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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:18 pm
by dorbar
@socke
Read again. Martin from Bondtech said "Our reseller in Germany..." :D

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:25 pm
by dorbar
Hey @Bondtech... one question/idea for you! The nice Bondtech sticker-logo is barely visible on the extruder. Could you make some bigger stickers, like "Bondtech Powered" :-) we could proudly put on our printers?!? I would certanly do that :-). There is plenty of space on ours Raise3D printer for a nice sticker.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:36 pm
by socke
dorbar wrote:@socke
Read again. Martin from Bondtech said "Our reseller in Germany..." :D


Yes, I know, but I've seen it directly on the company's website (https://www.3d-drucker-experte.de). There is a logo 'Raise3D Official Distributor'. So you can get the full kit there. ;)

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:57 pm
by jamma
firesped wrote:the biggest issue I am having right now is that the thermocouples for the kickstarter variant of the machine do not have a long enough cable to reach for install of the extruder board.

not worried about getting the vref correct. I've modded one of my probes for my multimeter to set these.


I'm doing the DualDirect install today and encountered the same issue. My breakout board does not look like the one in the video (see pic).

One critical difference is that the two smaller terminal blocks near the end accept wires from the "outside" rather than the inside. This makes using the Bondtech adapter a no-go, since it is capped at this end. I solved the problem by de-soldering the terminal blocks and flipping them 180 degrees so that they accept wires from the other end.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:51 pm
by JohnSays
I ran into a problem today printing with my BMG: The set screw on the left extruder worked its way loose 45 minutes into a print. I pulled the body apart, rotated the motor shaft, put Locktite on the set screw and reinserted it into the gear. All is well now, but I would suggest checking the tightness of that tiny set screw. The one for my right extruder was very tight when checked.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:50 pm
by Andy Cohen
I just installed the dual direct pancake upgrade. Printing Benchy right now. One thing I never saw mentioned in this thread is the impact on the filament Load utility... My new steppers were WAY too slow for loading. To change it go into the "Tune" window of the UI and up the Nozzle flow rates from 100 to 200. The load/unload utility uses that setting.
My upgrade needed to be shoe horned in since my SEB N2 had screw holes that were probably drilled without consistency. Expect that.
Also... it's kinda trick getting the new daughter board cover in. Remove all cable ties first and watch your cable routes. Also the new position for the cable chain is a touch tighter for the connector to the daughter board. I had to slip the bundle down a bit to get more play.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:15 pm
by Andy Cohen
The DualDirect Bondtech upgrade decreased ringing by at least 50% using the same speeds I had been using with the stock feeders. I also see much less zippers. It finished a 7 hour print in TPU and it came out perfect with no stringing at all compared to the same settings using the stock parts.
It WAS a bit of work putting it on to my SEB N2, but it was worth the time. The DualDirect Bondtech is absolutely awesome. Worth the $200. Unless of course you are OK with stringy, blobby, prints with ringing and overshoots that air print now and then.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:50 pm
by firesped
I replaced my extruder board and put in the V2 thermocouples that have longer leads. I'm trying to figure out how to deal with ABS lift atm. I've printed off a part. first time in the evening, second time was over night. the one printed over night had far more lift then the other part. so I am looking into a system to stable the temperature in the print chamber better.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm
by Andy Cohen
I scanned this thread to see if this was posted yet... I could not find anything so...
The latest version of the UI panel FW has esteps added. Go to the gear menu, Machine, More settings, Hardware, Steps per unit, esteps.
No need to change the start gcode to set the esteps to 415. Set it to 415 in the UI panel. It also changes the baseline for the load/unload utility.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:20 pm
by JohnSays
Thanks for the tip Andy. Just did it.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:27 pm
by EldRick
Anyone got a tip to adjust X/Y acceleration and Jerk for the Bondtech? I note that the Jerk, in particular, is set very low (no doubt because of the unusually heavy OEM extruder).
Is it possible to set these in start gcode, as supported by slicers?

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:13 pm
by tja
Way back in the first post, Jetguy called this an upgrade for N1, N2 & N2+. Since that time I have seen no mention of this upgrade being suitable for the N1. I think the only real difference is cable management, but there may be other differences that I don't know about. I would like to fit this to my dual N1, will it fit?

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:09 pm
by Jetguy
You guessed it, the problem is that the N1 being a smaller printer did use different cable management. Physically every other aspect of this works with N1 since the central crossing block and hotend system is identical. I'll be dead honest with you, my N1 didn't stay stock for very long with the stock cable management in the first place. I loath that type of cable tubing they used. Then further, even with the original Bondtech upgrade, I made my own cable management and while maybe not the nicest possible job, it's been untouched and functioning through thousands of prints in this way. I simply used some mesh cable management tube, a 1/4 inch nylon waterline tubing, some heatshrink and zipties to dress up and better manage the arching loop. The nylon water line is just a flexible but semi-rigid brace inside to maintain the arch so it doesn't lay down sideways from gravity and interfere over time. It was just attached to the stepper motor on the feeder with zip ties. You simply take a long ziptie and go around the motor but not tighten. Then slide another ziptie sideways on the side under the ziptie around the motor. That changes the direction and gives a bit of a flex joint. Tighten and cut both zipties and now the cable is held by the motor vertically, but has plenty of flex.

As far as the BMG dual upgrade, I guess we could design a printable part to attach where the cable chain does to the molded in mounting boss on the side. There is also still potential to use my method on the rear motor using cable ties. So plenty of options. I know it's not as nice as the N2, but even the stock OEM setup was just a cable clamp around the split loom so I feel anything you come up with is room for improvement.

Note again, these pictures are of the standard "mini" extruder and also note, I have a filament guide adapter from the Mosaic Palette installed on top of my Bondtech extruder (the part with the "A" on it).

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:29 pm
by Jetguy
Also, I finally got my testing rig together for direct best comparison of extruder pressure from the various upgrades. I'm starting with my N1 with the Bondtech mini upgrade and using PLA as the first material check I achieved 3.60KG pressure out of the thermal barrier tube AKA throat tube. I know this is the BMG thread and I'm getting to that, but I needed to test various options to give you the full scenario so the first test is simply a know and well used Bondtech mini as installed on my N1 for several months now. The intent is to show you what a stock extruder does, what the mini does, what the QR Bowden does, what the mini Bowden does, and last, what the dual BMG does.

The rig consists of a luggage scale disassembled and using some printed parts along with some parts I had laying around.
The metal plate is from a company formerly called QU-BD that sold various upgrades for other brands and their own printers.
Then the printed parts came from Eric Lien who did the testing for Martin and other extruders in the first place.
I'm also using a V1 throat tube from Raise 3D since it allows me to easily install and adapt the testing rig directly to the printer.
Before you ask, they aren't my STL files to share so I'll have to get an answer from Eric.
This is the luggage scale used for the load cell and works very well and is not too hard to adapt for various projects like this. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CNGXR8K

Anyway, here is the testing rig as installed. The basic idea is that stock firmware requires the hotend to be above 170C so I set it to 180c simply moved out of the way. It's very important to not take the hotend itself apart or disturb the heater and thermocouple and they must be connected to each other to prevent thermal runaway. Again, what I did here was simply loosen the extruder mounting, moved it to a rear cable access hole on the right side of the extruder block, removed the fan and duct but left it to blow on the hotend and mounted the testing rig into the stock left single extruder mounting bore. Inside the V1 thermal barrier is a short piece of 1.8mm metal wire so that the filament presses against it inside to push down on the load cell. This also helps to keep everything aligned. I simply load filament until it hits the load cell. Then I use the LCD control panel to using the 0.1mm distance to jog the filament to capture the highest pressure recorded before it skips a step.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:43 pm
by Jetguy
Just for reference, you want to know why you can only print with Ninjaflex at certain speeds?
My results in testing show that maximum possible force using the Bondtech mini which tested at a massive 3.60KG maximum force for ESUN brand PLA only achieved 0.70kg force consistently after 7 test runs to validate. Simply put, the compressive rubbery nature of ninjaflex and other TPU greatly limits the actual pressure at the nozzle. Coming soon BMG tests, and then we'll see what the stock metal setup produces.

Again, no wonder Ninjaflex is such a beast to print with, even on the best extruder we still only see a limited force at the nozzle.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 pm
by Jetguy
Some more pictures of the testing setup.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:05 pm
by Jetguy
Ok, so the numbers you really care about in this thread, what does the BMG do?
Answer= darn impressive.
Esun PLA I was able to hit 4.95 KG consistently and recorded a peak of 5.05 KG before skipping.
Ninjaflex was able to produce 0.80 KG before skipping steps.

Again, just to recap, BMG VS Bontech Mini
PLA is 4.95 KG VS 3.60KG
Ninjaflex TPU 0.80 KG VS 0.70 KG

Pictures of testing setup

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:47 pm
by firesped
I'm interested to see what the stock extruder does. also what the stock extruder does if you install washers to cant the motor.

all the issues I had on the bondtech were due to my setting my voltage too high.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:01 pm
by Jetguy
I had to dig and dig in the "spare parts bin" to find the original stock extruder. Installing now and testing shortly.
Also note, all tests were using my recommended Vref values for various extruders and the stock will be using official Raise3D values.

Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:43 pm
by Jetguy
So some notes on the stock setup. I have the new BOHONG black style motors on the N2 Plus I did the stock feeder testing on. Per the manual and factory "as I received it" setting of 0.90V Vref, and I had to use the folded paper shim method to cock the motor to get enough adjustment grip to prevent slipping and grinding these are the numbers.
PLA got 4.80Kg of force (again, with noted modification of cocking the motor using a shim)
Ninjaflex got an abysmal 0.35kg of force with the same mod.

Now, just some personal notes and a heck of an argument going on with Raise 3D tech support.
The black motors supplied with newer machines have several reports of them getting hot enough to melt the hot glue off of the connector.
I previously posted an thread on this topic with no reply from Raise 3D until now and they say not to lower Vref on the motor.
I'm done with the nice guy approach, this is a mod thread anyway, read between the lines here folks.
Between having to cock the motor with a shim and no way would I actually run prints at 0.9V Vref on that specific motor due to heat concerns, those numbers are BEST CASE scenario under unrealistic conditions. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1887&p=15764&hilit=glue#p15517

In fact, if I didn't cock the motor with the shim and as much adjustment as I could pry before tightening the motor mounting screws, it topped out at an abysmal 1.95kg of force on PLA before the slipping and grinding happened.
How many clueless users are facing this exact scenario where all they get is less than 2kg of force before it slips or fails? How many have heat related problems they don't even know about and Raise 3D answers thus far have been completely opposite to my advice?