Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

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EL Cuajinais
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Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby EL Cuajinais » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:47 am

I just tested "Resume Print" feature for the first time. I worked perfect except for the fact that it did not turn on the layer fan. Not in the "new first layer" nor any other layer after. When I noticed the stringing inside the infill I turned it on manually.

I hope this gets look at because personally although this printer has an absurd amount of killer features, in my view "Resume Print" is the ultra-mega-killingest feature of them all. This is what makes such a large print bed justifiable. Whereas on other printers I was afraid to go big due to fear of a power failure, here it is something I don't need to worry about! (The power utility service where I live is fairly reliable but it has its moments sometimes).

I need to write a gushing post sometime soon. I just can't beleive how friggin' awesome this printer is!

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:33 am

EL Cuajinais wrote:I just tested "Resume Print" feature for the first time. I worked perfect except for the fact that it did not turn on the layer fan. Not in the "new first layer" nor any other layer after. When I noticed the stringing inside the infill I turned it on manually.

I hope this gets look at because personally although this printer has an absurd amount of killer features, in my view "Resume Print" is the ultra-mega-killingest feature of them all. This is what makes such a large print bed justifiable. Whereas on other printers I was afraid to go big due to fear of a power failure, here it is something I don't need to worry about! (The power utility service where I live is fairly reliable but it has its moments sometimes).

I need to write a gushing post sometime soon. I just can't beleive how friggin' awesome this printer is!


Not sure which the layer fan refers to.There are two little 30*30 fan using for cooling extruder and the model on dual-extruder printer. And one little 30*30 fan for cooling extruder and one big round fan using for cooling model on single-extruder printer.
The little 30*30 extruder fan should be normally open. Once power on, it will start working.
And the big model fan on single-extruder is adjustable, it is controlled by gcode. When doing "power resume" function, the printer checks the gcode first after power recover. Checking the last code to top, find the latest code which defined the X、Y position, the fan speed and all the other commands the printer need to restore the site. So if the last code of your model fan is off, then when power recover, the fan will keep off. Suggest you watch the first few layers printing whenever start a print or recover a power failure. If the model fan does not work when starting recover printing, you can input a fan speed on touch screen.
BTW, if you have not updated to the latest firmware, please do.

EL Cuajinais
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby EL Cuajinais » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:37 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:And one little 30*30 fan for cooling extruder and one big round fan using for cooling model on single-extruder printer.
The little 30*30 extruder fan should be normally open. Once power on, it will start working.
And the big model fan on single-extruder is adjustable, it is controlled by gcode. When doing "power resume" function, the printer checks the gcode first after power recover. Checking the last code to top, find the latest code which defined the X、Y position, the fan speed and all the other commands the printer need to restore the site. So if the last code of your model fan is off, then when power recover, the fan will keep off. Suggest you watch the first few layers printing whenever start a print or recover a power failure. If the model fan does not work when starting recover printing, you can input a fan speed on touch screen.
BTW, if you have not updated to the latest firmware, please do.

I have I single extruder. The "layer fan" I'm refering to is the big round "model" fan you mentioned. So far I have sliced everything to start cooling on layer 2 and upwards. So when the printer loss power, the model fan was turned ON. When I resumend the print, the model fan stayed OFF. It should have turned on. Apparently the state of the fan is not being saved when powering down.

Another, different issue I've noticed unrelated to the Resume Print feature.:
I noticed that even though Ideamaker is set to turn the model fan ON starting in the 2nd layer, my model fan turns ON during the starup sequence and stays ON all the time. Which means that my 1st layer is being layed down with the model fan ON. This should not be. The printer should lay down the first layer with the model fan OFF, and then turn it on when starting with the 2nd layer and upwards.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Julia Truchsess » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:59 pm

EL Cuajinais wrote:
Another, different issue I've noticed unrelated to the Resume Print feature.:
I noticed that even though Ideamaker is set to turn the model fan ON starting in the 2nd layer, my model fan turns ON during the starup sequence and stays ON all the time. Which means that my 1st layer is being layed down with the model fan ON. This should not be. The printer should lay down the first layer with the model fan OFF, and then turn it on when starting with the 2nd layer and upwards.


I understand why you might want the part fan off during the first layer to promote adhesion, but be aware that there's a downside to this, which is that when the fan kicks in, there's probably going to be a temperature drop from increased convection losses until the heater PID loop can catch up. I haven't measured it on my N2 because the fans are always on and not gcode-controlled, but on another printer I own the temperature drops as much as 20º and takes up to 3 minutes to recover. Insulating the heater block can cut the drop in half but recovery time stays the same due to the nature of PID loops.

I was surprised to see the fans always on when I first received my N2 but I haven't had many adhesion problems, and I enjoy the temperature stability.

Block Insulation vs Fans.png

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walshlg
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby walshlg » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:29 pm

Thanks Julia - just shared you graph with our makelab printing group

EL Cuajinais
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby EL Cuajinais » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:25 pm

Thanks for the insight and the plot. Makes sense. Is the "Start fan on layer 2" option in Ideamaker working for anyone?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:26 am

EL Cuajinais wrote:Thanks for the insight and the plot. Makes sense. Is the "Start fan on layer 2" option in Ideamaker working for anyone?


The "Turn Fan On At Layer" setting refers to the following process.

First of all, the fan will keep ON at MAX SPEED from the third layer of RAFT to the first layer of the main part of your print. That means, when printing the first two layers of RAFT, the fan will not receive any instruction from gcode.
Then if you set the "Turn Fan On At Layer" as 2, the fan will decrease the speed when starting printing the second layer of your print then scale up the speed until reach the layer you set. At that layer the speed will reach to the "default fan speed".

Note: ideaMaker regards the first layer of main part as zero layer. So if you set turn on at 2 and set the default speed as 100%, then the first layer is MAX, the second layer is about 50%, the third layer will be 100%.


For the layer fan turn on failure when resuming, there maybe bug in slicing. Theoretically, the fan will not be turn off unless someone set the speed to 0. Would you like to share us the .gcode file to identify the problem?

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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Andy Cohen » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:36 am

Having a decrease in temp when the downward fan goes on is only a problem when the downward fan is aimed at the hot block or the hot end. I saw this once on a Taz 2. Even worse if the hot block is not insulated. Regardless, one can set the fan to turn on at 20% on the second layer, 40% on the 3rd etc... Does the N1 come with a downward, gcode controllable fan? Isn't the OP's bot an N2? Having one makes a BIG difference on the N2. I see zero effect on the hot block temp when it kicks in... but I have it ducted on to the object and not the hot block or the nozzle.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Julia Truchsess » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:11 pm

Andy Cohen wrote:Having a decrease in temp when the downward fan goes on is only a problem when the downward fan is aimed at the hot block or the hot end.


This is not true, at least on the Zortrax. The fan is directed downward, however, airflow around the nozzle and probably around the block, and its attendant convection losses, do increase due to airflow "bouncing" off the bed and other fluid dynamic effects. As I mentioned, I haven't measured the phenomenon on the N2. We should get some colored smoke or something to visualize the flow. Yes, an insulator can reduce the effect considerably, as my measurements demonstrate.

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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Andy Cohen » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:42 pm

Julia Truchsess wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:Having a decrease in temp when the downward fan goes on is only a problem when the downward fan is aimed at the hot block or the hot end.


This is not true, at least on the Zortrax. The fan is directed downward, however, airflow around the nozzle and probably around the block, and its attendant convection losses, do increase due to airflow "bouncing" off the bed and other fluid dynamic effects. As I mentioned, I haven't measured the phenomenon on the N2. We should get some colored smoke or something to visualize the flow. Yes, an insulator can reduce the effect considerably, as my measurements demonstrate.


This is when being able to control fan speed can be quite useful. However, for the N2 one would have to add a fan and connect to the right spot on the breakout board. My duct design puts the air on to the object at an angle which makes the wash bounce upward and forward and not back up to the nozzle. I run the fans at 100%, get no effect on my extruder temp and my blocks are not insulated. The downward air from the stock N2 fans are so far from the hot block and so light a blow that I really doubt there's enough blow back to effect the temp. Is there a downward, gcode controllable fan on the N1?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:08 am

Andy Cohen wrote:
Julia Truchsess wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:Having a decrease in temp when the downward fan goes on is only a problem when the downward fan is aimed at the hot block or the hot end.


This is not true, at least on the Zortrax. The fan is directed downward, however, airflow around the nozzle and probably around the block, and its attendant convection losses, do increase due to airflow "bouncing" off the bed and other fluid dynamic effects. As I mentioned, I haven't measured the phenomenon on the N2. We should get some colored smoke or something to visualize the flow. Yes, an insulator can reduce the effect considerably, as my measurements demonstrate.


This is when being able to control fan speed can be quite useful. However, for the N2 one would have to add a fan and connect to the right spot on the breakout board. My duct design puts the air on to the object at an angle which makes the wash bounce upward and forward and not back up to the nozzle. I run the fans at 100%, get no effect on my extruder temp and my blocks are not insulated. The downward air from the stock N2 fans are so far from the hot block and so light a blow that I really doubt there's enough blow back to effect the temp. Is there a downward, gcode controllable fan on the N1?


Hi Andy,

Every single-extrude printer has a downward, gcode controllable fan for cooling model, not only on N1, but also N2 and N2 Plus.
Attachments
1.png

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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Andy Cohen » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:58 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:
Julia Truchsess wrote:
This is not true, at least on the Zortrax. The fan is directed downward, however, airflow around the nozzle and probably around the block, and its attendant convection losses, do increase due to airflow "bouncing" off the bed and other fluid dynamic effects. As I mentioned, I haven't measured the phenomenon on the N2. We should get some colored smoke or something to visualize the flow. Yes, an insulator can reduce the effect considerably, as my measurements demonstrate.


This is when being able to control fan speed can be quite useful. However, for the N2 one would have to add a fan and connect to the right spot on the breakout board. My duct design puts the air on to the object at an angle which makes the wash bounce upward and forward and not back up to the nozzle. I run the fans at 100%, get no effect on my extruder temp and my blocks are not insulated. The downward air from the stock N2 fans are so far from the hot block and so light a blow that I really doubt there's enough blow back to effect the temp. Is there a downward, gcode controllable fan on the N1?


Hi Andy,

Every single-extrude printer has a downward, gcode controllable fan for cooling model, not only on N1, but also N2 and N2 Plus.

Interesting. It looks like it is a box fan pointing directly downward which in turn could easily wash back upward.
Why not also have something on the dual? I added one easily. I just do not get some of the decisions you guys made.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:09 am

Andy Cohen wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:
This is when being able to control fan speed can be quite useful. However, for the N2 one would have to add a fan and connect to the right spot on the breakout board. My duct design puts the air on to the object at an angle which makes the wash bounce upward and forward and not back up to the nozzle. I run the fans at 100%, get no effect on my extruder temp and my blocks are not insulated. The downward air from the stock N2 fans are so far from the hot block and so light a blow that I really doubt there's enough blow back to effect the temp. Is there a downward, gcode controllable fan on the N1?


Hi Andy,

Every single-extrude printer has a downward, gcode controllable fan for cooling model, not only on N1, but also N2 and N2 Plus.

Interesting. It looks like it is a box fan pointing directly downward which in turn could easily wash back upward.
Why not also have something on the dual? I added one easily. I just do not get some of the decisions you guys made.


Our fan duct design has directed cooling air to the model as well as to the heat sink.
Apparently additional model cooling fan will be better for PLA. Would you please share your design with everyone here? We appreciate your input very much.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Andy Cohen » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:51 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Hi Andy,

Every single-extrude printer has a downward, gcode controllable fan for cooling model, not only on N1, but also N2 and N2 Plus.

Interesting. It looks like it is a box fan pointing directly downward which in turn could easily wash back upward.
Why not also have something on the dual? I added one easily. I just do not get some of the decisions you guys made.


Our fan duct design has directed cooling air to the model as well as to the heat sink.
Apparently additional model cooling fan will be better for PLA. Would you please share your design with everyone here? We appreciate your input very much.

I have already shared. It was on the previous forum and repub'ed here... But this is the ink anyway:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1355622
It works quite well for me.

LonV
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby LonV » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:41 pm

I'd really love to get some discrete downward fans on my N2+ Dual.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Julia Truchsess » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:27 pm

Andy Cohen wrote:I have already shared. It was on the previous forum and repub'ed here... But this is the ink anyway:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1355622
It works quite well for me.


What printer was that printed on??!?

duct.JPG
duct.JPG (38.47 KiB) Viewed 5452 times

Andy Cohen
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Andy Cohen » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:31 pm

It was either one of my Rep2s or the CloneR1. I can't recall. Bridge Nylon. Note the ceramic insulation tape on top where it's close to the hot block.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Layer fan did not turn on when resuming print after power loss

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:00 am

Andy Cohen wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:Interesting. It looks like it is a box fan pointing directly downward which in turn could easily wash back upward.
Why not also have something on the dual? I added one easily. I just do not get some of the decisions you guys made.


Our fan duct design has directed cooling air to the model as well as to the heat sink.
Apparently additional model cooling fan will be better for PLA. Would you please share your design with everyone here? We appreciate your input very much.

I have already shared. It was on the previous forum and repub'ed here... But this is the ink anyway:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1355622
It works quite well for me.


Thanks so much for your sharing.


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