Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

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Noren
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Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Noren » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:41 pm

When printing with dense support layers I sometimes get that the first layer above the dense support layer doesn't adhere to the next layer.
The only option we have to set the distance between the dense support layer and the print is in the increment of 1 layer or more.
Wouldn't it make sense to have this option in mm's instead?
If I print at 0.2 mm layer height I know get a distance from dense support layer to print at 0.2 layer.
I would like to set this at 0.1 mm. To minimise the sagging of the layer above the dense support.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:27 pm

Notes taken. We will consider to use mm as unit for support distance instead of layer in future versions.

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:14 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Notes taken. We will consider to use mm as unit for support distance instead of layer in future versions.


Please make this an option in a future version :lol: :lol: :lol:

FOGD.NO
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby FOGD.NO » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:51 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Notes taken. We will consider to use mm as unit for support distance instead of layer in future versions.


I second that.. I also would like mm instead of layers.

TwinsTalk
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby TwinsTalk » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:43 am

Yes Please ! We need this !

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:23 am

Even we use mm to replace layer, the height will still be divided by layer height. So it won't be as accurate as calculated by layer directly.

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:51 am

OK, I think this should really be possible. I have two other brands next to my Raise3D that use closed source software that handle support settings this way. In one of the two you can adjust the support distance with a slider, the other is just closed so no settings but the support just works.

I also looked at an open source slicer that does work with vertical disctance as mm and I made an example picture:

VerticalSupportExample.jpg

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:51 am

In your picture, seems the layer height of the support gap is a little smaller than other layers. Please confirm whether it is the case.
And sections I marked in the following picture, looks weird too. Seems the extra model layer has been printed instead of leaving a gap.
Screenshot_20200429194950.png

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 am

I sliced it again with standard settings to try to show what I mean:

Here the model was sliced with 0.3 mm layers and a vertical support distance between dense support and model of 0.3 mm

0.3.jpg


And here I only changed that vertical support distance as an example to 0.15 mm so support is closer to the model

0.15.jpg


A bit hard to see but it is clear that the slicer enables the user to set the distance not in whole layers but absolute distance in mm which is great for different materials, printers, nozzles and temperatures/profiles. :D

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 01, 2020 11:23 pm

From what we can see from the picture, the layer height of support are changing. The gap doesn't seem like 0.1mm but looks like more than 0.15mm.
If the layer height is changing due to help lower the gap the rest of the model in that layer will be prinetd with lower layer height as well. But there is printing settings for different layer height in template to print those layers.

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Sat May 02, 2020 11:20 am

That's what I wrote, the second picture has a gap of 0.15 mm as an example of half the height of the layer height.

I think you are right, the 3 dense support layers in the second picture seem to be altered to leave the 0.15 mm air in stead of 0.3. They are probably calculated by the slicer automatically depending on the vertical distance in mm the user is typing in. But the model is only printed with 0.3 mm layers as you can see.

But this way it works, the model is sliced at 0.3 mm and the support distance can be adjusted so it would be very nice if IdeaMaker could also do this :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 05, 2020 1:29 am

That's what we concern about.
Different modelw ill be divided into different layer height to be different layers and support structures are always different from one model to another. No matter what fixed support gap you put there, won't match with all different structures' model.

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Wed May 06, 2020 11:19 am

I don't really understand the reply (can anybody else pitch in? Or am I the only one realising this could be an essential feature?).

That other slicer in my example works just fine the way I tried to explain. Also, my two closed source printers have better undersides when I print thicker layers in comparison to my Raise3D. One of them has a slider to finetune the distance just like the raft distance.

If you would set the support distance to 0.15 mm for instance this would be the same everywhere in the print so no different layers at all (only the optional 3 dense support layers but this is also the same in the whole print I assume).

I don't want to be annoying here so sorry if it comes across that way but I want to make sure we both understand eachother and I really think this request is technically possible as it already exists in only a few slicers.

FOGD.NO
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby FOGD.NO » Wed May 06, 2020 5:43 pm

I think they talk about if you have different models on the same build plate. Not sure why that should matter, because it could be the top layer on the support that is 0.15 distance and the slicer should be able to adjust distance at different places for a model right?
So if the model itself is printed at 0.25 layer height and the support got 0.15 distance between model it just need to print 0.25 - 0.15 when printing support. So layer height - offset. If I print at 0.1 layer height then support distance would be larger then layer height, but that should be able to set in the slicer what the offset could be. so just have a setting that say support distance and then from-to within the range of the set layer height. Or set mm offset from the layer height.

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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Thu May 07, 2020 5:43 pm

FOGD.NO wrote:I think they talk about if you have different models on the same build plate. Not sure why that should matter, because it could be the top layer on the support that is 0.15 distance and the slicer should be able to adjust distance at different places for a model right?
So if the model itself is printed at 0.25 layer height and the support got 0.15 distance between model it just need to print 0.25 - 0.15 when printing support. So layer height - offset. If I print at 0.1 layer height then support distance would be larger then layer height, but that should be able to set in the slicer what the offset could be. so just have a setting that say support distance and then from-to within the range of the set layer height. Or set mm offset from the layer height.


Exactly! That is possible as it is already possible in the other slicer in my example. But I don't want another slicer, I like IdeaMaker :lol:

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon May 11, 2020 9:53 pm

Thanks for your suggestions. We will discuss how we can achieve.

Regarding to the original issue, we found something in the following images when slicing with 0.3mm layer height and 0.1mm support gap.
1. The gap has been set for 0.1mm, but seems the actual result is about 0.16m.
2. The layer height for support structure in same layer is different from one support to the other which have to cut the whole support to be some individual support sections which will affect the strength of support.
3. To make the result more close to the set value, thickness of soli fill layer will be different from shells and other non-overhand solid fill layer at the same height. Which will have to divide the bottom surface to be individual sections which may affect the result of bottom surface.
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3DWP
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby 3DWP » Tue May 19, 2020 6:55 pm

So is that an internal test? I'm not sure I know what you mean in those pictures and if they are from the same slicer.

But it would be great if IdeaMaker has the option to set the distance as desired and only the support (dense or other closest layers to model) will get resized in height to calculate the correct distance. I guess this could be done in the 3 support layers under the model and air gap.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Need less distance between dense support layers and print.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed May 20, 2020 10:24 pm

Thanks for your suggestions! We will see how we can achieve it.


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