Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Discussions about ideaMaker and other printing software.
pieri70
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Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Fri May 08, 2020 10:00 am

Hello
thanks for Ideamaker developing, I think it's a really nice slicer.
I have some questions on what is the relation between extruder filament and print template.

In manage templates If I change a filament for a given extruder, let's say left extruder, I must create new print templates (slicing settings) for that combination, if the combination is new..

Why this feature?
I mean, Filament creation and management is ok, it has its own panel and I can manage diameter, temperature tree, flow and many other material options.

Printing template (slicing settings) is something relative to the way I want my printer to print at a given resolution/speed and so on.
So for example if I like to print @50mm/s with given retraction, infill, layer height, wall thicness I can create different print templates with all printing settings stored and saved.

So why shall I change printing templates ad duplicate them when I change extruder/filament combination?

If I'm not wrong I must export a printing template, create filament/extruder combination and then reimport the printing template. This generates a mess in settings IMO.

Wouldn't it be better to separate printing templates (slicing settings) and filament/extruder combinations?
In this way you could create a printing template with 0,2mm height, 3 wall thickness, giroid infill, 30% infill @ given speed etc.. and you can use it with any filament/extruder combination?
There is also an option in filament settings to override slicing parameters in printing templates, that is perfect because with a given filament you can modify some slicing settings.. Perfect!
So why duplicate printing templates on filament/extruder combination???

Do I miss something?

Thanks!

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Fri May 08, 2020 5:41 pm

I have the same question. I'm not really understanding the intent around how templates are supposed to be organized.

It feels like the intent is for each filament to have its own set of templates. This makes sense since different types of filaments have different slicing requirements, e.g a PLA template is not going to work for ABS or TPU. That's great, but the problem comes when you go to setup a new filament. For a PETG filament I might want to copy all my PLA templates and then adjust the temperature and speeds as needed for PETG. But when you try to create template copies, it requires you to specify completely unique names because ALL templates are stored in the same file directory. So in order to avoid confusion you end up having to encode lots of parameters into the template names, like:

[Hatchbox] PLA 1.75mm Black 0.2mm - no support
[Solutech] PETG 1.75mm White 0.2mm - with supports

... and so on. And then when you want to add a second printer it's even more of a mess, because different printers have different capabilities and sharing templates between them may not always work.

So what is the intended method to keep all of this stuff straight?


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pieri70
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Fri May 08, 2020 8:28 pm

May be, but in filament panel setup you can add overwriting settings for many slicing parameters.. try to add a new one you'll see you have a huge amount of settings you can assign to a new filament.
So why do we need to create new slicing setup (print settings) for any new filament?

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Sat May 09, 2020 7:33 pm

pieri70 wrote:May be, but in filament panel setup you can add overwriting settings for many slicing parameters.. try to add a new one you'll see you have a huge amount of settings you can assign to a new filament.
So why do we need to create new slicing setup (print settings) for any new filament?



That might work ok for filaments which are fairly similar. But for filaments that are radically different you may have to override a lot of settings, which is more confusing because now you have two different places to edit the same settings from. It's more difficult to keep track of things when you have a lot of overrides going on (easy to forget what has been overridden).

When you create a new filament though you don't have to first export your existing templates so you can import them again. All templates are stored in <user>\AppData\Local\Raise3D\Profile, so you can just import them directly. It's still a weird step though. You would think duplicating a filament would automatically duplicate all the templates that you've already created for that filament. But the option to simply use the existing templates would also be nice, for example if you have multiple brands of PLA that only need very slight adjustments, like temperature or flow rate.


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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon May 11, 2020 9:45 pm

All the settings are included in mian template. If you'd like to, you can change all the settings directly in main template and name them as different filament instead of changing some in filament settings and some under the mian template under that filament.
But we will suggest to slice under different filament, that more clear and easier to manage. So that you can put special settings for this filament under filament settings. And do further quality tune in main template under this filament for different layer height or other quality purposes.

pieri70
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Tue May 12, 2020 7:07 am

kb9ydn wrote:That might work ok for filaments which are fairly similar. But for filaments that are radically different you may have to override a lot of settings, which is more confusing because now you have two different places to edit the same settings from.


Yes I agree


kb9ydn wrote:When you create a new filament though you don't have to first export your existing templates so you can import them again. All templates are stored in <user>\AppData\Local\Raise3D\Profile, so you can just import them directly.


Thanks I did'n know.

kb9ydn wrote:It's still a weird step though. You would think duplicating a filament would automatically duplicate all the templates that you've already created for that filament. But the option to simply use the existing templates would also be nice, for example if you have multiple brands of PLA that only need very slight adjustments, like temperature or flow rate.
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Yes, indeed it would be nice if a user can choose if he wants to have a new slicing template for a given filament or if he will changes only some overwrites in filament setup for many filaments similar in their properties...

Now you are obliged to create a new slicing setup for a new filament in any case (if I'm not wrong) and give it a new name.

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:All the settings are included in mian template. If you'd like to, you can change all the settings directly in main template and name them as different filament instead of changing some in filament settings and some under the mian template under that filament.


Thanks Vicky@Raise3D, Which/where is the main template?
Is it possible to edit and save the main template?
That is like creating let's say a fake PLA filament with many slicing templates associated to it and modify these templates to fine tune them or to set different properties. Then use them as model for different filaments with same properties (different PLA for example)?

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:But we will suggest to slice under different filament, that more clear and easier to manage. So that you can put special settings for this filament under filament settings. And do further quality tune in main template under this filament for different layer height or other quality purposes.


Are you sure it's clearer and easier to manage?
Consider a situation where you have let's say 10 different PLA brand.
Each one have differences only in filament flow and temperature (nozzle/bed).
Slicing are the same for given qualities/strongness/structure

You have 3 different slicing templates for 0.2mm, 0.1mm and corkscrew/hollow and you want to use these 3 different slicing templates for the 10 different PLA.
You must replicate/rename 3 slicing templates for 10 PLA....

Then you realize that 0.2mm height template is stronger/better if you change infill extrusion width percentage to 110%.
So you must change it in a given filament/extruder combination and you must remember to update also the main template. And then update all the remaining 9 templates for the remaining PLA filements.

Am I wrong?

Thanks

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 12, 2020 6:05 pm

pieri70 wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:All the settings are included in mian template. If you'd like to, you can change all the settings directly in main template and name them as different filament instead of changing some in filament settings and some under the mian template under that filament.


Thanks Vicky@Raise3D, Which/where is the main template?
Is it possible to edit and save the main template?
That is like creating let's say a fake PLA filament with many slicing templates associated to it and modify these templates to fine tune them or to set different properties. Then use them as model for different filaments with same properties (different PLA for example)?


Main template is the template shown after you selecting printer and filament after clicking slice. It's the one you can go Advanced Settings to tune all the settings.
You can edit the setting in main template as well as export the template and import it to be under any printer or filament and do further tuning. Or you can duplicate it under the same printer and filament and give it a different name to tune different settings for different application.

pieri70 wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:But we will suggest to slice under different filament, that more clear and easier to manage. So that you can put special settings for this filament under filament settings. And do further quality tune in main template under this filament for different layer height or other quality purposes.


Are you sure it's clearer and easier to manage?
Consider a situation where you have let's say 10 different PLA brand.
Each one have differences only in filament flow and temperature (nozzle/bed).
Slicing are the same for given qualities/strongness/structure

You have 3 different slicing templates for 0.2mm, 0.1mm and corkscrew/hollow and you want to use these 3 different slicing templates for the 10 different PLA.
You must replicate/rename 3 slicing templates for 10 PLA....

Then you realize that 0.2mm height template is stronger/better if you change infill extrusion width percentage to 110%.
So you must change it in a given filament/extruder combination and you must remember to update also the main template. And then update all the remaining 9 templates for the remaining PLA filements.

Am I wrong?

Thanks


But if your 10 different PLA all have specific settings for each one of it, always using the same template under one flament to slice will make you have to tune the settings every time when you want to slice with different PLA.
You can consider tune the settings for different filament under Filament Settings. It will override the settings in mian template.

pieri70
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Wed May 13, 2020 12:11 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:But if your 10 different PLA all have specific settings for each one of it, always using the same template under one flament to slice will make you have to tune the settings every time when you want to slice with different PLA.
You can consider tune the settings for different filament under Filament Settings. It will override the settings in mian template.


No, because under a given filament settings panel you can set almost any overriding parameters to be applied to all slicing template used with that particular filament...

So why so many overriding parameters in filament panel setup if you must create each time specific filament/slicing template?
Attachments
overwritings.JPG

FOGD.NO
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby FOGD.NO » Wed May 13, 2020 2:59 pm

I have seen this in the Ideamaker and struggle a bit with how it is built.

My suggestion

1. Split the main page in separate windows where one is for each head. So if you want to set something for the left head, then open a window for head1 and only that. If you want head2 then open for this. If you set 4 head you could open 4 windows.

2. Make each head/nozzle work like individual heads with it`s own settings for speed, temp, flow, fan instead of primary head and secondary head like now.

3. Have everytthing for the filament settings and print settings in one template instead of filament + template. It is better to just have one template for each of your filament and just name them "Fillamentum PLA RED" or something. Inside the template you have temp, flow, fan and so on.

4. The list under the drop down windows where you could + overrides you could set overrides for all the settings you have in the template if you want to do a quick change for layer height or enable support depending of your print. So no overrides inside template and filament like now because it is more confusing and it is easy to forget that you have override for flow in template and then you have one flow in filament and then you also might have override for flow in the list under all the settings. (to much of the same several places)

5. Get a warning if you have a setting that is just over the top. I accidently typed 700flow instead of 70.0 and in other slicers you get a warning if you set something that is more then "normal".

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Wed May 13, 2020 6:36 pm

FOGD.NO wrote:I have seen this in the Ideamaker and struggle a bit with how it is built.

My suggestion

1. Split the main page in separate windows where one is for each head. So if you want to set something for the left head, then open a window for head1 and only that. If you want head2 then open for this. If you set 4 head you could open 4 windows.

2. Make each head/nozzle work like individual heads with it`s own settings for speed, temp, flow, fan instead of primary head and secondary head like now.

3. Have everytthing for the filament settings and print settings in one template instead of filament + template. It is better to just have one template for each of your filament and just name them "Fillamentum PLA RED" or something. Inside the template you have temp, flow, fan and so on.

4. The list under the drop down windows where you could + overrides you could set overrides for all the settings you have in the template if you want to do a quick change for layer height or enable support depending of your print. So no overrides inside template and filament like now because it is more confusing and it is easy to forget that you have override for flow in template and then you have one flow in filament and then you also might have override for flow in the list under all the settings. (to much of the same several places)

5. Get a warning if you have a setting that is just over the top. I accidently typed 700flow instead of 70.0 and in other slicers you get a warning if you set something that is more then "normal".



Regarding #1 and #2:
I only just noticed now how it is currently setup for 2 extruders. You can only select a single template, which is not good at all. If for example you have PLA in one extruder and TPU in another, the optimal settings for each of those will be totally different. So how can you have a common settings template for both?

#3 and #4:
This is sort of what I was thinking as well. It's the filament that drives most of the settings, so have all the settings done per filament instead of by what is currently called "template". Then you could maybe have another set of templates to override the filament settings for different printing scenarios, like with or without support, cosmetic detail vs. structural strength, speed vs. quality, etc.. The tricky part here is that the override templates really need to be specific to a given filament, or at least a given filament type (PLA/ABS/TPU/etc.). So I'm not sure what would be the best was to organize these.
Actually the way Ideamaker is setup right now is close to this, except that all the advanced settings need to be under the filament instead of under "template".


In addition to this, it would be nice if the filaments could be filtered based on tags, like type, brand, diameter, etc.. It wouldn't really be required but after awhile you could have many different filament types/brands/colors/etc. which will make the available filament list very long and hard to scroll through.


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FOGD.NO
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby FOGD.NO » Thu May 14, 2020 5:29 am

kb9ydn wrote:
FOGD.NO wrote:
In addition to this, it would be nice if the filaments could be filtered based on tags, like type, brand, diameter, etc.. It wouldn't really be required but after awhile you could have many different filament types/brands/colors/etc. which will make the available filament list very long and hard to scroll through.C|


I asked for a feature where we could add tags on setting, filament and templates to include model names, filament brand with more. Just like Lightroom with photos and Instagram on a post.

pieri70
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Thu May 14, 2020 5:44 am

kb9ydn wrote:Regarding #1 and #2:
I only just noticed now how it is currently setup for 2 extruders. You can only select a single template, which is not good at all. If for example you have PLA in one extruder and TPU in another, the optimal settings for each of those will be totally different. So how can you have a common settings template for both?


This is why you have overridings in filament setup panel I guess..

kb9ydn wrote:#3 and #4:
This is sort of what I was thinking as well. It's the filament that drives most of the settings, so have all the settings done per filament instead of by what is currently called "template". Then you could maybe have another set of templates to override the filament settings for different printing scenarios, like with or without support, cosmetic detail vs. structural strength, speed vs. quality, etc.. The tricky part here is that the override templates really need to be specific to a given filament, or at least a given filament type (PLA/ABS/TPU/etc.). So I'm not sure what would be the best was to organize these.


Right now slicing template is coupled with filament so there is no need to enforce it IMO.
At contrary you can't have slicing templates available for all (or some) filaments at once.
And this is limiting IMO, because it should depend on a given user preference if he wants "N" different templates for "N" "different" filament or "N-n" different templates because "n" filaments are slightly different and can be tuned in filament overridings..

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Thu May 14, 2020 7:51 am

pieri70 wrote:
kb9ydn wrote:Regarding #1 and #2:
I only just noticed now how it is currently setup for 2 extruders. You can only select a single template, which is not good at all. If for example you have PLA in one extruder and TPU in another, the optimal settings for each of those will be totally different. So how can you have a common settings template for both?


This is why you have overridings in filament setup panel I guess..


Yes I think you're right. But if you end up having to override a lot of the template settings at the filament level anyway, what's the point of the templates? Just put all the settings at the filament level and be done with it.



pieri70 wrote:Right now slicing template is coupled with filament so there is no need to enforce it IMO.
At contrary you can't have slicing templates available for all (or some) filaments at once.
And this is limiting IMO, because it should depend on a given user preference if he wants "N" different templates for "N" "different" filament or "N-n" different templates because "n" filaments are slightly different and can be tuned in filament overridings..


That's kind of what the problem is now. The templates aren't flexible enough and sort of just get in the way. So if instead you put ALL the slicing settings at the filament level, you can setup as many or as few filaments as you want. You can have a single filament for PLA and just use the group settings for small adjustments before every print. Or you can have 20 different PLA filaments with different settings for each one.

Then, if you end up always doing the same overrides to the filament, you could use the templates for that instead of the group and layer settings. Then the templates would just be preset combinations of overrides that you can use if you want to, or not at all. Any template could be applied to any filament since they're just overrides, and you could organize them in any way you want.


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pieri70
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby pieri70 » Thu May 14, 2020 8:32 am

kb9ydn wrote:Yes I think you're right. But if you end up having to override a lot of the template settings at the filament level anyway, what's the point of the templates? Just put all the settings at the filament level and be done with it.


May be I didn't explain myself.
Let's say you want to print an object with 2 or more filament (different color or different structure - piece PLA/support PVA)
Why do you want 2 different slicing templates for these two filaments/extruder?

In PLA/PVA situation (piece/support) You will have a single template where you set the extruder/PLA for piece/infill and extruder/PVA for support.
And this is a single slicing template for both extruders.
Then you will have two filaments with different settings and some overrides (overrides come from filament and applies to slicing template not viceversa)
So PLA will have its temperature, and flow
PVA will have its temperature and flow and if you want it to be printed slower you vill set an override to lower speed. This override will impact the speed of the slicing template.


kb9ydn wrote:That's kind of what the problem is now. The templates aren't flexible enough and sort of just get in the way. So if instead you put ALL the slicing settings at the filament level, you can setup as many or as few filaments as you want. You can have a single filament for PLA and just use the group settings for small adjustments before every print. Or you can have 20 different PLA filaments with different settings for each one.
Then, if you end up always doing the same overrides to the filament, you could use the templates for that instead of the group and layer settings. Then the templates would just be preset combinations of overrides that you can use if you want to, or not at all. Any template could be applied to any filament since they're just overrides, and you could organize them in any way you want.
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Look at my previous explanation
No need for a lot of overrides at filament level and no need to have as many slicing templates as filaments.
A single given slicing template could be transversal to many filaments with little overrides at filament level.
If a given filament is completely different in all its characteristics then you could create (in this particular case) a completely new slicing template.
But again, also in this latter situation you have so many overridings in filament panel that I thing there isn't any need to create a new slicing template.

A slicing template should concern only about slicing options (perimeters, infill, speed, support, bridges etc etc..)
Filament settings and overrides should concern filament peculiarities and some slicing template fine tuning needed by filament type (Temperature, flowrate for filament and let's say an override on speed if you need to print it at a given speed and some other overridings if needed)

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Sat May 16, 2020 8:37 pm

pieri70 wrote:May be I didn't explain myself.
Let's say you want to print an object with 2 or more filament (different color or different structure - piece PLA/support PVA)
Why do you want 2 different slicing templates for these two filaments/extruder?

In PLA/PVA situation (piece/support) You will have a single template where you set the extruder/PLA for piece/infill and extruder/PVA for support.
And this is a single slicing template for both extruders.
Then you will have two filaments with different settings and some overrides (overrides come from filament and applies to slicing template not viceversa)
So PLA will have its temperature, and flow
PVA will have its temperature and flow and if you want it to be printed slower you vill set an override to lower speed. This override will impact the speed of the slicing template.


I understand exactly what you mean. And really there are two separate ideas in question here. One is about sharing template files across filaments and the other is about how settings are broken up between filaments and templates.

Regarding shared template files; sometimes having templates shared between filaments would be fine, and even preferable. For a given filament type I think you could have a set of templates (for different quality levels, layer heights, etc.) that is shared among them. For these it does NOT make sense to have to create separate template files (as we do now). So here I think we totally agree. Why should I have to make copies of all of my PLA templates just for a new brand of PLA that needs a higher temperature and slightly slower feed rate?


But, different filament types DO need to have different slicing templates if you intend to optimize printing for those filaments. Yes you can use most of the PLA settings for PETG, and only override the temperature, flow rate, and an overall speed. But the result isn't as good as if you set ALL of the slicing parameters specifically for PETG. And because of this, I think it would be better to have ALL parameters set at the filament level and have the template settings override the filament settings. By doing it this way you could potentially get away without using templates at all. Just pick your filament(s), maybe set a few overrides for support, bed adhesion, etc., and print.

This is completely independent of the template sharing problem. Allowing template sharing across filaments would go a long way towards making things easier. I think moving all the settings to the filament level and having templates override filaments would be even better, but it's perhaps too large a change at this point (although I would hope the developers at least think about it).


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FOGD.NO
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby FOGD.NO » Sun May 17, 2020 1:59 pm

Back to the possibility to set "tagging" in templates and filament files and just search for them.

I could have templates that I could tag with a model name, filament brand, speed or other things and when I want to make a new filament template then I just search for: PETG quality and get one I tagged with that. or : speed, bridge or or: overhang pla.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed May 20, 2020 2:57 am

Are you using for a searching feature for all materials and printer templates or a search box under each template?

kb9ydn
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby kb9ydn » Fri May 22, 2020 12:50 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Are you using for a searching feature for all materials and printer templates or a search box under each template?


I think the idea is that you would tag a particular template with words that describe certain properties of it, or where it's used; things like "high quality", "with support", "PLA", "Ender 3", etc.. So this would apply to all printers, filaments, and templates.

But this is only part of the larger problem, which is how to best organize the potentially rather large number of templates that we could have. Here's an example:

Lets say I start off with one printer and one brand of PLA. I create a profile for the Printer, a profile for the filament, and then say 5 templates associated with that filament. If I add another brand of PLA and want to use my existing templates; I have to import the existing templates to the new filament, which requires creating 5 new files with unique file names. Now lets say I add a couple brands of PETG (10 more templates) a a couple TPUs (maybe 4 more more) and a high temp PLA (5 more). Now I have 29 total templates. Then I get a second printer and want to use all my existing filaments and templates. Duplicate everything again and now there are 58 templates to manage. And all of them have to have unique filenames. And those filenames have to be descriptive enough of what each template is so that when I need to import them into the next new filament I add, I can find the right one. It would be so much easier if the software just maintained an internal list of ALL the available templates I've created so that I could search and pick the one I want based on keywords, instead of having to browse in a directory and hope that my filenames are descriptive enough.

So browsing template files without having to find them in a directory would be very helpful. But ultimately I think the best way to handle printer, filament, and slicing profiles (templates) would be to not use files at all and instead put everything in a database. Exporting/importing files should only be necessary when sharing profiles with other people, or if you new to reinstall the software and restore all your profiles from a backup. And once all the settings are in a database, searching becomes far easier.


Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the matter. Maybe development has already thought of all this and has a longer term plan, I don't know. I just know that trying to keep everything organized with the way the software operates right now is difficult and cumbersome.


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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat May 23, 2020 12:33 am

So you are looking for a Global Search Box of to use Keyword or Tag to find the settings, not define the printer and material first and search inside the template, correct?

FOGD.NO
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Re: Relation between filament/extruder/print template

Postby FOGD.NO » Mon May 25, 2020 5:37 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:So you are looking for a Global Search Box of to use Keyword or Tag to find the settings, not define the printer and material first and search inside the template, correct?


Global search for keywords instead of file names. I could have templates and material saved settings with keyword in them.

So instead of drop down menus, you have search field in a database to find the material used, then what settings to use.

A filter section where I set different keywords and then It will only show the one I filtered for. Almost like when searching for something on google and could set filter for date, size etc to narrow down my search. Then I could set keyword Raise3dE2, 0.4Nozzle, Testcube, PLA and I`ll find templates I made for this and that would work for PLA.


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