Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

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detroitus
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Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:07 pm

I've been noticing this issue for quite a while now. Ideamaker seems to be incapable of consistently automatically creating support structures in the necessary locations to properly support a print with even a moderate level of complexity. Every time I want to print something with Ideamaker that has detailed components, I find that I must go in and create the supports manually (which can take FOREVER in many cases).

I'm attaching a simple examples here, along with the associated files. As you can see, the supports auto created during slicing as well as the ones created using "Create Auto Supports" under the Support Structures function are inadequate to provide support for this model in any way whatsoever. I sometimes use Cura as well and that software never has any issue with automatically creating supports. It's only Ideamaker that misses these obviously free-floating features nearly every single time. Is this a bug that we can expect to be fixed at some point?

Sliced with supports.PNG


Auto Supports 1mm 60deg.PNG
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GhostbatHigh.data
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Last edited by detroitus on Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:43 pm

Seems there are small features on model that Pillar can't generate support properly.
Try smaller Pillar size and see whether the result is better. If still not good enough, try Normal Type support under Advanced settings.

detroitus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:19 pm

The images I provided are with the smallest possible pillar size. Changing the support type from pillar to "Normal" does not fix this issue either, nor does scaling the model up to make the features larger. While increasing the size of the model does improve the performance of the autosupport function somewhat, it still does not recognize features that come to a point suspended in space.

This is an issue I have found repeatedly with ideaMaker whenever I've tried to print something with any level of fine detail. Adding the support pillars manually is fine for simple models, but is not practical for larger or more complicated prints. As I mentioned before, other slicer software packages that I use do not have this issue and are capable of recognizing ALL unsupported features on a print. I would prefer to use ideaMaker in most cases, but this autosupport bug makes it impractical, and it would be nice to know that you guys are addressing the issue.

Free-hanging features such as in the images in my post should be recognized and supported regardless of what the settings for "pillar size" or "support type" are.

Sliced with supports.PNG

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:02 pm

Have you tried enabling the Support under Slice but not generating Manual Support in Main interface? Is there any difference?

detroitus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:56 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Have you tried enabling the Support under Slice but not generating Manual Support in Main interface? Is there any difference?


Yes I have. That is what is shown in the first "Print Preview" image I shared. Slicer supports only with no Manual Supports created. The second image is what the Manual Support dialog generates when it is told to Auto Generate supports based on 1mm pillars and 60 degree overhangs.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:08 am

Would you like to share the model file with us to run some tests?
And I would suggest to decrease the overhang setting to be 30-45.

detroitus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:51 pm

The file is too large to attach, but you can get it here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16r0vl ... tejU-enHqO

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:09 am

We tried to slice your model with Manual Support disabled and Support enabled under Slice and Set Support Max Overhang Angle as 30 degrees with PLA default template. Here is the result:
20191025170735.png
20191025170743.png
20191025170743.png (4.85 KiB) Viewed 1217 times

detroitus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:43 pm

I can get that result as well. And for this particular model it would be ok to have that much support structure to remove post-print. The issue that I have has more to do with the software missing obvious support points when trying to minimize support structures to no more than necessary. There is no need for supports beneath a 60 or a 45 degree overhang, and having to set the Overhang Angle to 30 degrees just to get the software to recognize completely unsupported regions of the part simply is not going to be practical for every print. A feature that is free-floating in space should be recognized by the software as effectively a 90 degree overhang and supported regardless of the support settings. This is the flaw I am trying to point out here.

I shouldn't have to drown my print in supports simply to ensure that small free-hanging features are included. I've attached an image of the slice preview of this same model done in Cura with the Overhang Angle set to 70 degrees. Each of the small points that are floating in free space without any material beneath them were identified and supported without issue. While I prefer to use ideaMaker as my slicer, I will often go to Cura for models with complex geometries exactly for this reason. Ultimately, what I would like to know is whether Raise3D intends to address this issue for future updates?

cure slice.PNG
Last edited by detroitus on Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:50 am

Printing model with support generated with high Overhang value will be very hard to print out well.
You can consider either print with lower Overhang value and normal Support or add pillars manually to where is lacking of support with Auto-Create Manual Support.
We will keep on optimizing support genrating in future versions.

Patronus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Patronus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 pm

Vicky, I have the same issue where Ideamaker doesn't correctly auto-create support for floating features no matter how small I make the pillars. I'm not willing to drop support angle down to 30 degrees to compensate for this error when other slicers allow me to print at 55 - 60 degrees with support in the correct places on the same model.
The problem occurs when the floating area starts small at the bottom. If this small area was concave (viewed from the bottom) then it makes sense not to use support. But if the area is convex like the bottom of a stalactite then you do need support there. I designed an example to illustrate this problem. The upside down pyramid at the bottom starts a few mm above the build plate so it needs support to print properly.

Here is the model:
Support Test.JPG


Here is how IM slices it (smallest pillar size) and as you can see the print will fail because it will start printing the upside down pyramid in thin air:
Support Test IM1.JPG


See how Cura recognises the floating area and creates a bit of support under it.
Support Test Cura 1.JPG


And what happens if I turn the model 90 degrees on its side? The same problem:
Support Test IM3.JPG

The sharp underside is not supported in IM so the print will fail.

Cura handles it correctly:
Support Test Cura 2.JPG

detroitus
Posts: 106
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:56 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Printing model with support generated with high Overhang value will be very hard to print out well.
You can consider either print with lower Overhang value and normal Support or add pillars manually to where is lacking of support with Auto-Create Manual Support.
We will keep on optimizing support genrating in future versions.


Yes, thank you Vicky. I do know that manually adding supports will work, and that is what I have done in the past when necessary. My main reason for creating this thread was to alert you to a flaw in your software's auto-support creation algorithm with the hopes that it could be addressed. As was mentioned by both myself and Patronus, this issue does not arise when using other slicers. IdeaMaker is extremely unreliable at consistently generating support structures in all necessary locations, regardless of the settings used.

Patronus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Patronus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:11 pm

I attach the model that I used in my example.
Attachments
Support Test.stl
(12.19 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:37 am

Thanks for bringing the issue up. We will try to improve the algorithm of generating support. Once we complete some beta versions including this improvement, will update here.

detroitus
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby detroitus » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:01 pm

Thank you Vicky. I look forward to it.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:27 pm

I will PM you the beta version we just finished. There are some new features built inside can help your issue.

DeX
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:56 am

Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby DeX » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:01 pm

I've notice some issue, see the pic below:
strangesupports.png

IM 3.4.2
Supports settings:
suppssetts.png

gcode attached.

Well, I think supports on the pic1 isn't OK.
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korp16-im.7z
(2.03 MiB) Downloaded 21 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:59 pm

Once the Sparse Connection being enabled, the extrusion lines among each support will be replaced the strings left due to nozzle travel. So the retraction will be cancelled to ensure strings can be created.

DeX
Posts: 169
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Re: Ideamaker Support Structures Not Generating Properly

Postby DeX » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:38 am

Ok. I should try print that way and see what's what :)


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