problem with spiral vase mode

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Pierre
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problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:43 pm

Hello,

I have a problem printing in spiral vase mode.

As you can see on the pictures, the surface of the part shows a defect that seems to be done at layer transition.
I can also see it in the preview of the gcode.

IMG_20170323_182119.jpg

Capture.JPG


I disabled the retractation to be sure it was not interfering.

Has anyone an idea about what happens ansd how i could avoid it ? (I saw the same part made by a friend with slic3r and there was no defect on the part and no visible transition between layers)

Have a nice day
Pierre

Charles
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Charles » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Are you sure vase mode is turned on in Ideamaker? There shouldn't be any explicit layer changes since it is all continuous.

Pierre
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:47 pm

That's what I thought also :) but yes, I'm sure that the spiral vase mode is on ...

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walshlg
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby walshlg » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:57 pm

check again, that is a layer change

to test do the test cube, increase Z ht to something like 6cm, print 1 outer shell 0 inner shell 1 bottom and 0 top layers in vase mode.

You may have been hit by the persistent bug in ideamaker where often settings you select aren't applied/ remembered until you hit save. If you go to the next screen they sometimes revert back to default. Always save your profile then recheck every setting before printing. This is frustrating and stubbornly persistent in Ideamaker.

Pierre
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:45 pm

I checked again and tried on another model : same problem ...
I'm sure that I'm in spiral vase mode and that i unchecked the retractation.

Capture.JPG
Capture2.JPG
Capture3.JPG


does anyone has a working spiral vase mode gcode that I could try ?

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walshlg
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby walshlg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:56 pm

hmmmmm not sure why its slicing wrong, did you try the vase mode on the cube yet?

Jetguy
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Jetguy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:25 pm

I can tell you why it's wrong. the STL IS WRONG.
To slice with vase mode, you cannot use a hollowed out STL that is made with a thin wall.
You MUST slice with what previews and looks like a CLOSED CYLINDER or else, the slicer is going to make 2 walls, one on the inside of the outer shell and one on the inside shell, and with 2 shells you CANNOT DO VASE MODE.

Jetguy
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Jetguy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:32 pm

Let me show you an example.
These will slice correctly in VASE mode and do a proper single wall spiral because they are not hollow as an STL.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:570288/#files

This vase http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42570/#files has BOTH versions of the STL. One is hollow and that means that the designer took a second smaller STL, did a Boolean operation to subtract, and created an STL that has a shape that is hollow. In doing so, the slicer sees BOTH an inside and outside wall and thus must make a shell inside of that wall but again, that's 2 shells. You cannot spiral make 2 shells.

So if you want to spiral vase mode it, you MUST choose the non-hollow version and enable the slicer in spiral or vase mode.
Also, to prevent the top of the model from making a skin since it's how the cad looks, simply turn roof layers into 0 in your slicers so only the bottom floor is made.

Jetguy
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Jetguy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:36 pm

Also, if your STL forks like this http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:63123, then spiral mode cannot work because it's crossing between 2 towers with a travel move on the upper layers. Spiral mode with only work with single shell objects with a single outline for the entire print.

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walshlg
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby walshlg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:22 pm

Jetguy wrote:Also, if your STL forks like this http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:63123, then spiral mode cannot work because it's crossing between 2 towers with a travel move on the upper layers. Spiral mode with only work with single shell objects with a single outline for the entire print.


thanks I was wondering about that

Pierre
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:34 am

Thank ou all for your help

I made the cube test and it's still wrong.
The difference is that the problem occurs on a corner so it's less visible.

good corner :
Capture1.JPG


bad corner :
Capture2.JPG



I think that my first file was allready good for vase mode. I'm sharing it if you want to take a look and try to slice...

aero_vase_160B.zip
(460.89 KiB) Downloaded 130 times


Have a nice day
Pierre

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walshlg
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby walshlg » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:32 pm

so when you print your cube, does the junk in the corner show up in the print?

By any chance do you have a layer change point set?

Pierre
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:02 am

yes, the bad corner is less sharp.
I have no layer change point set...

I made other tests, and I found that the only case ideamaker makes a good gcode is for a perfect cylinder. In all other case you get artefacts.

for instance, this model that seems to be made for the spiral vase mode :

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:37327

I still get a bad gcode :

Capture.JPG


I will try to mix gcode made with ideamaker for the header of gcode file, and the one made by slic3r for the body, since the spiral vase mode of slic3r seems to work. I'll tell you the result asap.

If someone has any working gcode made by ideamaker in spiral vase mode , please share, I would like to see it.

Have a nice day
Pierre

Jetguy
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:05 am

Hmmm, I get problems too that I don't remember seeing before from Ideamaker. The hundreds of little spikes obviously are a path problem.
vase mode problem.jpg


Then the exact same STL sliced via Simplify3D and it's vase mode is perfect. Just for apples to apples, I did the preview using Ideamaker, but the attached zip file is that produced gcode. It's for an N1, but will print on any Raise3D printer(N1,N2, N2+, Custom N3) I even did concentric infill on the base layers for a cool effect.
S3D vase mode.jpg
Attachments
SpiralVaseHD-export.zip
(3.06 MiB) Downloaded 113 times

Pierre
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Pierre » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:43 am

Thank you Jetguy,

Yes this last one is perfect, and the concentric infill is very nice !
I hope we will be able to do the same in Ideamaker soon.

NewbPilot
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby NewbPilot » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:09 am

I just sliced a bowl with Ideamaker 2.5.1 and it printed perfectly.
Image

Used a solid model, 0 infill, 0 top layers, 1 shell. Was about 4 hours to print this 200x91 bowl

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:46 am

Thanks for sharing!
Which kind filament it is? It looks really nice.
Which type of printing did you use, spiral vase mode or normal print with 1 shell?

NewbPilot
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:08 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Thanks for sharing!
Which kind filament it is? It looks really nice.
Which type of printing did you use, spiral vase mode or normal print with 1 shell?

Thank you :) Not my model, but it was printed with eSun translucent PETG in Spiral vase mode with 1 shell and 0 infill/top layers.

That said I am going ask if my below issue is a limitation of my knowledge, the model, or Idea Maker ... welcome all input

I wanted to print this model on my N2 (even though I still have not spent time to level the bed.....)
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1535483 which says it can be printed in Spiral Vase mode. The first one (green) was sliced with IdeaMaker 2.6 and the second one (crystal red) was 2.5 from March 2017. I didnt save the settings for green, but i am 99% sure it was 0.2 layer height with 0.16 first layer, 0% infill, 1 shell, spiral vase mode, 0 top layers and 3 bottom layers. The second one includes screen shots of the settings. Is this failure (at the almost exact same point, i may add) my settings, the model itself, or Idea Maker?

Image
the green actually did print with the top, but with two sides missing.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Image

Image

NewbPilot
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:43 am

Interesting, i just found that at the base of the pink one there are gaps in the print that dont exist in the green one, but also arent uniform on all 3 sides.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Jetguy
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Re: problem with spiral vase mode

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:53 pm

When you print a single wall vase style print, a number of factors are extremely critical and are on a per filament basis.
#1 is extrusion temperature must be tuned and optimized per filament. Too hot, the layer deforms and pulls inward (the breaks and gaps in the base you pointed out). Too cold, it looks crystalline and rough surface and the layers don't bond well

#2 Fine tuning extrusion multiplier, filament diameter, and flowrate to achieve proper rate of extrusion. This is the classic is the nozzle extruding faster or slower (technically it's volume, not rate, but that's a whole different story) than it is moving. Filament diameter and grip on the filament by the drive gear varies between any 2 filaments. Single wall extrusion must be perfect because if you over or under extrude volume wise, when printing single wall, it will stretch (under extrusion) or just kind of over drool ) over extrusion.

#3 and yes, givne that we only have a single wall layer, and overhang printing is limited, the 2 above factors combine to further limit overhang performance.

So basically, in the prints above, you failed to fine tune extrusion temps and also extrusion volume, and because of that, you have multiple types and combinations of the above failures.


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