newraiseuser wrote:Isn't it easy to just make a Pro machine with the longest axis in the x or y direction?
You completely lost me there. A Pro machine is an N2 or N2 Plus with new mainboard, new endstops, Bondtech extruder, moving nozzles, filament out detection, webcam, and air filter.
If what you mean is different build area options, no, non square build area and larger build area do not scale well with the UM gantry design of the N series. N2/N2plus is about as large as 8mm rods can be spanned.
By definition, it's a Dual extruder model as no reason for moving nozzles on a single nozzle printer. So call it a model or whatever, but it's a specific version offered in 2 sizes, N2 and N2 Plus.
There is talk about other models, called a different model because the feature set is different.
Example is, sure, you could have an N1 dual extruder in "Pro" trim, but given the low number of N1 units sold, given the price, given the other competition in the 200x200x200 build volume space (Ultimaker3 cough, cough).
N2 and N2 plus are both bigger than many other models sold.
You could do a single extruder version pro- but that omits the moving nozzles and Bondtech absolutely did make a single extruder BMG style recently announced I'm installing today, but Raise 3D may not have bought them. So it would be single extruder, no moving nozzle, filament detection, new mainboard and stepper drivers, air filter, and camera. But then we get into pricing, and well, it gets interesting with fragmenting the market like that.
What I'm saying is, let's understand what the Pro is.
If you want a dual extruder that is larger than the Ultimaker 3, you want lifting nozzles, Bondtech extruder, latest mainboard and stepper drivers, filament detection, air filtering, and webcam- all factory done- then the Pro is your machine. On that front, it's a good deal and the new heated bed is a really nice touch. The price difference seems reasonable over a standard N2/N2Plus dual (roughly $1k).
If you itemize those upgrades:
Bondtech Dual $200
Filament detection $89
New mainboard 32bit and new stepper drivers $200 (given a Duet Wifi is $169, I think this is a fair valuation)
Heated bed system upgrade $200
Moving nozzles system with 2 hotends $300
$10 for optical endstops
So going back, again, you can take any current N series and get to a similar place.
Not everything is 1 for 1, but the big items, again, doable.
Put a Bondtech on it, single or dual
Come up with your own custom heated bed if that's your thing
Bondtech shared with me a video of an alternate moving nozzle system in Beta testing for 3rd party upgrades. Not sure when or cost- but promising. Just saying, this Pro feature, others are working on it so there is more than one way to skin a cat for existing owners.
Upgrade the stepper drivers rather than swapping the entire mainboard $20-$50 depending on doing just XY or all 5.
Slap in your own IP camera- it may be better or worse- all depending on what you want and what features are shipping (questions still not well answered today).
If we are going to have a debate, a good one to throw around is that how modular is the new extruder compared to the UM3 system?
I mean clearly, the moving nozzles is an intent to compete with a feature on the UM3. Pro series is bigger build volume similar features there are some differences and Raise 3D does have some advantages, but one thing I hinted at before- the change and market scope Raise 3D is aiming at.
UM3 has a plug in extruder hotend "module". Basically, it's near idiot user proof. You pay for that feature, and you start to get into sole sourced or specific upgrades, but again, it's a module that plugs in. I've seen some 3rd party upgrades specific modules- but again, the cost- it's a complete module.
Raise 3D is still using a discrete system of components for the hotend. Individual heater cartridge, thermocouple, all connected with screw terminals to the breakout. Arguably, it's less novice friendly, more tech support and troubleshooting. The advantage is low cost. If all you need is a new hotend, that's $80. If you need a nozzle, that can be individually changed. UM is designed as an assembly or module. Raise 3D, the user has screw terminals, bare wires, setscrews, and tons of other details. If it was to be more "novice friendly", and more consumer like, the change would be more like a UM3 modular hotend system.
Also, if talking and comparing. Even the UM3, even if I'm painting it in a certain light here as the competition, Bondtech still makes an extruder upgrade for it, and to my knowledge, Ultimaker is not shipping with that upgrade from the factory.
I guess what I'm saying is, at least from everything I know, the new Pro is a good deal for a user buying a new printer.
I have no idea how viable this model will be in terms of sales, if it instantly obsoletes or they quit selling the current non-pro, how it competes in the global market for this size and feature class of machine. It could be if it does not sell well, or if more user input and changes come, then a new model and direction. I'm just trying to point out (and a way too late) that if the goal was more corporate and school and business users, it's a mixed bag. Yes, you have the moving nozzles. No, the extruder still isn't modular and "idiot proof" so right there, I see conflict in complexity to get a feature, but when it breaks or needs adjusted- how much will this backfire? Yes, you have filament out detection- but is that as implemented really the final answer? Yes, the Bondtech should have been the standard. Yes, the heated bed upgrade- really, this is what should have been standard. The camera- well that's a fun debate and even I wait to see what really happens there, what it cracks up to be.
Again, if I was buying, even with what I'm saying, I'd still buy a Pro VS saving a few $ and trying to hand upgrade an existing N2/N2Plus.
For all I know, I would either love or hate the moving nozzle thing. It might never get used in my workflow, or maybe it's the greatest thing ever, but the one thing I do see if that if a user can break a current hotend- they can break the heck out of the pro. That's simply because you can see it in the pictures, the throat, the heater block, the nozzle, the heater and thermocouple have not changed. The extruder breakout is the same. I know how to use these parts like the back of my hand- but a little search here and weekly, you see at least one user knee deep in troubleshooting and parts breakage, leaking, stripped screws and downhill from there.
But, that's also a slope there in that for an existing owner, don't consider your machine now completely obsolete.