Just Released N2 Pro

[Jetguy]

Isn't it easy to just make a Pro machine with the longest axis in the x or y direction?

You completely lost me there. A Pro machine is an N2 or N2 Plus with new mainboard, new endstops, Bondtech extruder, moving nozzles, filament out detection, webcam, and air filter.
If what you mean is different build area options, no, non square build area and larger build area do not scale well with the UM gantry design of the N series. N2/N2plus is about as large as 8mm rods can be spanned.

By definition, it's a Dual extruder model as no reason for moving nozzles on a single nozzle printer. So call it a model or whatever, but it's a specific version offered in 2 sizes, N2 and N2 Plus.

There is talk about other models, called a different model because the feature set is different.
Example is, sure, you could have an N1 dual extruder in "Pro" trim, but given the low number of N1 units sold, given the price, given the other competition in the 200x200x200 build volume space (Ultimaker3 cough, cough).
N2 and N2 plus are both bigger than many other models sold.
You could do a single extruder version pro- but that omits the moving nozzles and Bondtech absolutely did make a single extruder BMG style recently announced I'm installing today, but Raise 3D may not have bought them. So it would be single extruder, no moving nozzle, filament detection, new mainboard and stepper drivers, air filter, and camera. But then we get into pricing, and well, it gets interesting with fragmenting the market like that.

What I'm saying is, let's understand what the Pro is.
If you want a dual extruder that is larger than the Ultimaker 3, you want lifting nozzles, Bondtech extruder, latest mainboard and stepper drivers, filament detection, air filtering, and webcam- all factory done- then the Pro is your machine. On that front, it's a good deal and the new heated bed is a really nice touch. The price difference seems reasonable over a standard N2/N2Plus dual (roughly $1k).
If you itemize those upgrades:
Bondtech Dual $200
Filament detection $89
New mainboard 32bit and new stepper drivers $200 (given a Duet Wifi is $169, I think this is a fair valuation)
Heated bed system upgrade $200
Moving nozzles system with 2 hotends $300
$10 for optical endstops

So going back, again, you can take any current N series and get to a similar place.
Not everything is 1 for 1, but the big items, again, doable.
Put a Bondtech on it, single or dual
Come up with your own custom heated bed if that's your thing
Bondtech shared with me a video of an alternate moving nozzle system in Beta testing for 3rd party upgrades. Not sure when or cost- but promising. Just saying, this Pro feature, others are working on it so there is more than one way to skin a cat for existing owners.
Upgrade the stepper drivers rather than swapping the entire mainboard $20-$50 depending on doing just XY or all 5.
Slap in your own IP camera- it may be better or worse- all depending on what you want and what features are shipping (questions still not well answered today).

If we are going to have a debate, a good one to throw around is that how modular is the new extruder compared to the UM3 system?
I mean clearly, the moving nozzles is an intent to compete with a feature on the UM3. Pro series is bigger build volume similar features there are some differences and Raise 3D does have some advantages, but one thing I hinted at before- the change and market scope Raise 3D is aiming at.
UM3 has a plug in extruder hotend "module". Basically, it's near idiot user proof. You pay for that feature, and you start to get into sole sourced or specific upgrades, but again, it's a module that plugs in. I've seen some 3rd party upgrades specific modules- but again, the cost- it's a complete module.

Raise 3D is still using a discrete system of components for the hotend. Individual heater cartridge, thermocouple, all connected with screw terminals to the breakout. Arguably, it's less novice friendly, more tech support and troubleshooting. The advantage is low cost. If all you need is a new hotend, that's $80. If you need a nozzle, that can be individually changed. UM is designed as an assembly or module. Raise 3D, the user has screw terminals, bare wires, setscrews, and tons of other details. If it was to be more "novice friendly", and more consumer like, the change would be more like a UM3 modular hotend system.

Also, if talking and comparing. Even the UM3, even if I'm painting it in a certain light here as the competition, Bondtech still makes an extruder upgrade for it, and to my knowledge, Ultimaker is not shipping with that upgrade from the factory.

I guess what I'm saying is, at least from everything I know, the new Pro is a good deal for a user buying a new printer.
I have no idea how viable this model will be in terms of sales, if it instantly obsoletes or they quit selling the current non-pro, how it competes in the global market for this size and feature class of machine. It could be if it does not sell well, or if more user input and changes come, then a new model and direction. I'm just trying to point out (and a way too late) that if the goal was more corporate and school and business users, it's a mixed bag. Yes, you have the moving nozzles. No, the extruder still isn't modular and "idiot proof" so right there, I see conflict in complexity to get a feature, but when it breaks or needs adjusted- how much will this backfire? Yes, you have filament out detection- but is that as implemented really the final answer? Yes, the Bondtech should have been the standard. Yes, the heated bed upgrade- really, this is what should have been standard. The camera- well that's a fun debate and even I wait to see what really happens there, what it cracks up to be.

Again, if I was buying, even with what I'm saying, I'd still buy a Pro VS saving a few $ and trying to hand upgrade an existing N2/N2Plus.
For all I know, I would either love or hate the moving nozzle thing. It might never get used in my workflow, or maybe it's the greatest thing ever, but the one thing I do see if that if a user can break a current hotend- they can break the heck out of the pro. That's simply because you can see it in the pictures, the throat, the heater block, the nozzle, the heater and thermocouple have not changed. The extruder breakout is the same. I know how to use these parts like the back of my hand- but a little search here and weekly, you see at least one user knee deep in troubleshooting and parts breakage, leaking, stripped screws and downhill from there.

But, that's also a slope there in that for an existing owner, don't consider your machine now completely obsolete.

[Jetguy]

Hey, also, I missed this but it's good question.
The price between the N2 Dual and the Pro2 is roughly $1k ($2999 VS $3999)
The difference on the N2 Plus VS Pro2 Plus is more like $3899 VS $5999 a difference of $2.1k

For a buyer at this exact second, the Pro2 makes sense, in fact a good deal.
The Pro2 Plus- for all the reasons I questioned, coupled with this massive $2k difference in price, whats the intent here?????
Maybe I missed some major detail, it's entirely possible that some detail justifies it, but it does make me question and I cannot be alone?

[FreedomRules]

I hope raise3d will sell the print heads and the new bed. I tried buying some dglass3d auto raise heads but they said they no longer mfg the 1.75 sized unit nor had any left even in just parts. I've been thinking about doing the mod someone on here did for as an overkill bed upgrade. I've tried several times and it just seems impossible to get the stock bed level.

The retractable heads are without question, the most appealing aspect of the Pro2 that I would like to retrofit. I have searched the web for options; but haven’t seen anything that I felt confident about being able to retrofit to the N2.

While a slight improvement over the N2’s design; I was somewhat disappointed to see that the Pro2 still relies upon the Factory Leveled” bed. If it ever goes out of level, or you need to replace the heated bed; their system is a nightmare to re-level. I’m giving serious consideration to TobyCWood’s spring mounted bed leveling mod (on Thingiverse), most likely in combination with a BLtouch auto-level mod; but I need to do a bit more research on the BLtouch and reach out to some of the users who appear to have successfully integrated that mod.

I just assumed the new bed was going to be ground up new with a thick plate and 3 point leveling system since there existing bed in my opinion was a failure. I just looked at the specs also and it still only heats to 110C anyway. I think I'll just go with modified version of Socke's bed viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1590. He went with a 220V heater and I don't want to have to run 220V to the printer so I'm going with a 110v heater. Do that and add the BLTouch bed leveling both mods seem pretty straightforward and not to complicated.

[FreedomRules]

Hey, also, I missed this but it's good question.
The price between the N2 Dual and the Pro2 is roughly $1k ($2999 VS $3999)
The difference on the N2 Plus VS Pro2 Plus is more like $3899 VS $5999 a difference of $2.1k

For a buyer at this exact second, the Pro2 makes sense, in fact a good deal.
The Pro2 Plus- for all the reasons I questioned, coupled with this massive $2k difference in price, whats the intent here?????
Maybe I missed some major detail, it's entirely possible that some detail justifies it, but it does make me question and I cannot be alone?

I would assume the Pro2 being a single head unit doesn't have auto lift. While the Pro2 Plus having 2 heads does. Although an additional 1k more for lifting heads seems to be an awfully steep price to me. The auto lift Dglass3d units were only $135.00 a piece. On top of that being a Gen1 auto lift for them they should have offered it at a lower price point especially if they have issues. You don't see to many Gen1 products that are such a success that buyers were super happy about the purchase. Gen1 is usually reserved as a learning curve for the mfg. Why not price it as such.

[newraiseuser]

I would recommend Raise3D to make new printers with features based on users' requests. Both sides will benefit.

[Jetguy]

Hey, also, I missed this but it's good question.
The price between the N2 Dual and the Pro2 is roughly $1k ($2999 VS $3999)
The difference on the N2 Plus VS Pro2 Plus is more like $3899 VS $5999 a difference of $2.1k

For a buyer at this exact second, the Pro2 makes sense, in fact a good deal.
The Pro2 Plus- for all the reasons I questioned, coupled with this massive $2k difference in price, whats the intent here?????
Maybe I missed some major detail, it's entirely possible that some detail justifies it, but it does make me question and I cannot be alone?

I would assume the Pro2 being a single head unit doesn't have auto lift. While the Pro2 Plus having 2 heads does. Although an additional 1k more for lifting heads seems to be an awfully steep price to me. The auto lift Dglass3d units were only $135.00 a piece. On top of that being a Gen1 auto lift for them they should have offered it at a lower price point especially if they have issues. You don't see to many Gen1 products that are such a success that buyers were super happy about the purchase. Gen1 is usually reserved as a learning curve for the mfg. Why not price it as such.

???
Pro2 series is dual extrusion. There is no single extruder variant (yet). There are 2 heights Pro2 is N2 305mm. Pro2 Plus is N2 Plus 605mm tall.

[newraiseuser]

What is the electronic driven lifting feature for? Is it to prevent the 2nd extruder from hitting the prints?

Anybody knows why the N2's single extruder option is no longer available in the online store anymore?

How come the Pro2 and Pro2 Plus do not have single extruder version?

[Anubis]

What is the electronic driven lifting feature for? Is it to prevent the 2nd extruder from hitting the prints?

Yes.

How come the Pro2 and Pro2 Plus do not have single extruder version?

Answered by Vicky earlier in this thread:

You wrote, you are working on an improved single extruder version of the N2 series. Have you more information about this ?

We are still defining the final tech specs. For the time being, we can only inform that it will be an
improved version of the N series, with a single extruder and a price point lower than the Pro2 series.

[Jetguy]

What is the electronic driven lifting feature for? Is it to prevent the 2nd extruder from hitting the prints?

Yes, in a nutshell, the entire point.

Anybody knows why the N2's single extruder option is no longer available in the online store anymore?

Could and likely is what I said earlier, they may have stopped making N2s and what you see is existing stock. Just so happens all dual extruders were built and that's what is left.

How come the Pro2 and Pro2 Plus do not have single extruder version?

I thought I made that pretty clear in my several long posts. They are bundling several upgrades/changes to change the market of who they are selling printers to. Since the stepper drivers and new mainboard aren't really that enticing (my opinion), since the Bondtech is already a 3rd party upgrade, since the competition has a price point and feature set, given there is a profit margin for the original hardware design, the single version doesn't make a lot of business sense. But back to my question, same thing, Pro2 Plus VS Pro2 doesn't make sense either.

Raise 3D has basically said, with this preorder thing, it's about gauging the market. If 100 people today emailed them and demanded a single extruder, it might come on the table.

[bwulfe]

I try to look at this thing from both sides, as a user/consumer and Raise3D's side.
Anyway, as any N2 owner I really hope to see at least the retractable nozzle as an upgrade. I have been thinking about changing this myself somehow but haven't begun yet because it isn't simple I think.

Ditto that!

[bwulfe]

You don't see to many Gen1 products that are such a success that buyers were super happy about the purchase. Gen1 is usually reserved as a learning curve for the mfg. Why not price it as such.

I couldn't agree more. My KS N2 Plus came with V1 Hot Ends. I paid a steep upgrade price to obtain two V2 Hot Ends. I later discovered that those turned out to be what I call V2 Beta Test Units. The design was later upgraded to a more refined & better tooled unit. The Heat Sync was completely redesigned (changed from a 2-piece unit to a single block and they actually installed a setscrew in the heat sync hole. The screw attachment pattern also changed, providing a better, tighter fit.) After upgrading (again) to the later design V2 Hot-Ends (purchased via a 3rd party site; since Raise3D store listed as out-of-stock) I found that the current design assembles and aligns much better than my original V2 Hot Ends ever did. My early release V2 Hot Ends were virtually impossible to assemble & keep square. (The throat tube would not screw down completely, unless the flat surfaces of the throat were at an approximate 30 degree offset from the straight sides of the heat block and heat sync. (virtually identical offsets on both hot end assemblies) The only way to get everything to align completely was to screw in a nozzle, extremely tight to prevent any movement. Unfortunately, as soon as I began to heat the nozzle, the metal expanded and the heat blocks began to twist around. On many occasions, the dual heat blocks would end up touching; which screwed up dual temperature, dual material prints.

Considering the fact that many of these upgrades are not cheap; it would be nice if they at least offered some form of incremental discount system, rather than asking early adopters to pay for engineering corrections. JMHO.

[SpaceNinjaPirate]

Hello everyone!

Long time listener, first time caller. I'm not yet a Raise3D owner, but I've been lurking on these forums for almost a year gathering info on Raise3D's printers for the time I would one day own one myself.

At any rate, I got pretty excited when I read about the new Pro2 & Pro2 Plus models... but then started to think about some of the noted improvements. As a prospective buyer (at some point in the future), I was going to post my own questions but see that Jetguy managed to beat me to it, albeit a lot more verbosely than I would have.

So, if I may, I would like to wade in on this conversation as well. The one main concern that I would REALLY like an answer to is one that Jetguy touched on here:

Hey, also, I missed this but it's good question.
The price between the N2 Dual and the Pro2 is roughly $1k ($2999 VS $3999)
The difference on the N2 Plus VS Pro2 Plus is more like $3899 VS $5999 a difference of $2.1k

For a buyer at this exact second, the Pro2 makes sense, in fact a good deal.
The Pro2 Plus- for all the reasons I questioned, coupled with this massive $2k difference in price, whats the intent here?????
Maybe I missed some major detail, it's entirely possible that some detail justifies it, but it does make me question and I cannot be alone?

I have to agree wholeheartedly. Why such a HUGE price difference between even the Pro2 and Pro2 Plus? Is Raise3D somehow assigning a dollar value per inch of height thinking that with this printer, a business/professional user could theoretically make $X amount more than merely owning a Pro2 (as if EVERY print that a professional does will somehow take advantage of that extra height)? What's the justification?

You've already set the precedent stating that extra foot of build height is worth about $900 to go from the N2 to the N2 Plus. There don't appear to be any "build height dependent" improvements on the Pro2 series, so all things being equal, how does it now cost $2000 for an extra foot of build height from the Pro2 to the Pro2 Plus?

[Ben Roj]

I heard from local reseller that Ultimaker is releasing Ultimaker 3 XL with 30x30x30cm build area soon.

I agree that it will be a pain to disassemble the new pro extruder when get the filament jam, just look at all the cables and parts (filament sensor) and small servo motor to control the dual extruder mechanic.

One thing that Raise3D does not advertise is that they change the touchscreen manufacturer to be of better quality come with 2 USB ports while the SD card and all other slots get removed. The touchscreen is more responsive.

[Vicky@Raise3D]

Considering the fact that many of these upgrades are not cheap; it would be nice if they at least offered some form of incremental discount system, rather than asking early adopters to pay for engineering corrections. JMHO.

For Kickstarter backers, we will provide a special discount of 8% for printer backers, and 5% for nonprinter backers. Shoot an email to us at inquiry@raise3d.com to receive more information on how to claim this special discount. This will be valid until September 30th of 2018.

[newraiseuser]

What is the electronic driven lifting feature for? Is it to prevent the 2nd extruder from hitting the prints?

Yes, in a nutshell, the entire point.

Anybody knows why the N2's single extruder option is no longer available in the online store anymore?

Could and likely is what I said earlier, they may have stopped making N2s and what you see is existing stock. Just so happens all dual extruders were built and that's what is left.

How come the Pro2 and Pro2 Plus do not have single extruder version?

I thought I made that pretty clear in my several long posts. They are bundling several upgrades/changes to change the market of who they are selling printers to. Since the stepper drivers and new mainboard aren't really that enticing (my opinion), since the Bondtech is already a 3rd party upgrade, since the competition has a price point and feature set, given there is a profit margin for the original hardware design, the single version doesn't make a lot of business sense. But back to my question, same thing, Pro2 Plus VS Pro2 doesn't make sense either.

Raise 3D has basically said, with this preorder thing, it's about gauging the market. If 100 people today emailed them and demanded a single extruder, it might come on the table.

Under Technical Specifications, the single extruder version is listed.

[newraiseuser]

I heard from local reseller that Ultimaker is releasing Ultimaker 3 XL with 30x30x30cm build area soon.

How soon will that be?

[ziteac]

Anybody knows why the N2's single extruder option is no longer available in the online store anymore?

Could and likely is what I said earlier, they may have stopped making N2s and what you see is existing stock. Just so happens all dual extruders were built and that's what is left.

A week ago I was ready to pull the plug on purchasing a N2+. However this thread has me concerned on moving forward especially after this statement by Jetguy.

So is this a true statement and if so how long will Raise3D support there machines even after the warranty has expired with replacement parts. Spending this price I would expect support for at least 3-4 years at "my cost" of course.

I personally cannot justify the cost difference of the PRO2, as the only TRUE upgrades that make it worth while is the extruder and the new bed. In my case the bed isn't that big of a deal and I can purchase the extruder for $200. There other items in "my case" is trivial. Now if there where larger rails or upgraded frame or something that made it beefier then I can see it.

Again, however my concern is future support.

[Casale8]

I didn't read it anywhere, but I 'm hoping that the Raise added the functionality for the printer to shut off when a print is finished.
something that should still be able to be done with N, N2, and N2+.

[Vicky@Raise3D]

A week ago I was ready to pull the plug on purchasing a N2+. However this thread has me concerned on moving forward especially after this statement by Jetguy.

So is this a true statement and if so how long will Raise3D support there machines even after the warranty has expired with replacement parts. Spending this price I would expect support for at least 3-4 years at "my cost" of course.

I personally cannot justify the cost difference of the PRO2, as the only TRUE upgrades that make it worth while is the extruder and the new bed. In my case the bed isn't that big of a deal and I can purchase the extruder for $200. There other items in "my case" is trivial. Now if there where larger rails or upgraded frame or something that made it beefier then I can see it.

Again, however my concern is future support.

No matter the printer is under warranty or not, we will together with our sales partners keep on supporting our customers.

[Vicky@Raise3D]

Example 1, moving to a 32 bit motion control is generally a good thing. Upgrading stepper drivers is generally a good thing. That said, there are a few questions:
What firmware specifically is now running on the 32 bit motion control, and if it's just marlin ported to 32 bit- my enthusiasm drops significantly.
What specific stepper drivers were chosen? Are they soldered on the board with zero chance of upgrade? If they are TMC2130s, that's not really an upgrade compared to the newer TMC22xx series with Stealthochop

The X Y Z drivers we use for Pro2 Series are stand-alone drivers, located in separate boxes and driven by pulse and direction signals which are not soldered on the board. So the drivers are replaceable separately.
The Extruder drivers are soldered on the motion board. They are STSPIN 820. But the pulse and direction signals are exported to separate connectors, which means you can bypass the soldered chip.

The new firmware is a totally different firmware from Marlin, developed by ourselves, using different motion planning algorithms. With the new firmware, Pro2 series printers can run much faster compared with N series printers which are able to fully use the computation power of the FPU. It is optimized for float calculation and 256 micro-steps drive mode.