Filament monitor

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:36 am

basilfawlty wrote:I'm struggling with daily clogged nozzles and stripped filament at the moment.

I'd love to be a beta tester of the filament monitor if you're looking for one. :)


Thanks for you support!
Currently we are just on proof stage, needs more test and improvement.
Still needs some time to approach the beta version.
If we have any progression, we will release the news.

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obfuscated
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby obfuscated » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:42 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The filament monitor is still under development. We are so sorry for such long delay.


Any updates on this?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:50 am

obfuscated wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The filament monitor is still under development. We are so sorry for such long delay.


Any updates on this?


Currently, no.
Still on sample tests process.
We want to optimize it to be with well-function.
Need more discussions and tests.

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obfuscated
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby obfuscated » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:59 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
obfuscated wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The filament monitor is still under development. We are so sorry for such long delay.


Any updates on this?


Currently, no.
Still on sample tests process.
We want to optimize it to be with well-function.
Need more discussions and tests.


Okay so from what I have read in the thread here it seems like the harder thing to develop is the clog detection? Would it possible to release a firmware that would go into pause if the pin was trigger to allow a DIY sensor to at least detect the filament out?

As for detecting clogs I guess the idea is to assume that if the extruder gear is moving but the filament is not that there is a problem. I suppose having a roller on the filament and a hall sensor would work. Although one problem might be a false positive when the heads are moving away from the spool and pulling on it.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Julia Truchsess » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:08 pm

My 2 cents is that out-of-filament detection is in reality more useful than clog/slippage detection, and obviously much much simpler to implement. By the time a clog or slippage is detected, what with gcode buffering and all, your print is probably ruined anyway, and if it sits there for a while in that state there's not much damage done or filament wasted. The most common scenario is you're starting a print and don't know if there's enough filament on the spool to finish it. With an out-of-filament detector you can proceed with confidence, and use up the entire spool without waste without having to sit and watch it like a hawk.

Trying to detect every kind of feed error makes the whole thing complex, finicky, and prone to false alarms, as witnessed by the long time it's been under development.

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woofy
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby woofy » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:45 pm

I agree with both the above.
Please implement a pin that will pause the print. The rest is easy, just a micro-switch and piece of plastic we can print ourselves.
Raise3D N2+, Ultimaker2 & UP plus printers.

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walshlg
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby walshlg » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:14 pm

Second ! I'm doing a 2kg print this weekend and have to Juggle my whole weekend just to be around for spool change!

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obfuscated
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby obfuscated » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:50 pm

I have ruined far more prints due to filament running out than clogs and considering the ability to print objects large enought o need more than one spool it seems like an obvious omission to the system.

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basilfawlty
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby basilfawlty » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:19 am

And I'm in the opposite camp. An out of filament sensor would certainly be better than nothing but at least the filament is predictable. If I'm not sure if I have enough left on a spool I just weigh the spool. The vast majority of my issues are due to my ongoing battle with clogging. Since it's unpredictable, the clogging has wasted a LOT more filament and time for me than running out of filament. I seem to be in the minority though.
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obfuscated
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby obfuscated » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:23 am

basilfawlty wrote:And I'm in the opposite camp. An out of filament sensor would certainly be better than nothing but at least the filament is predictable. If I'm not sure if I have enough left on a spool I just weigh the spool. The vast majority of my issues are due to my ongoing battle with clogging. Since it's unpredictable, the clogging has wasted a LOT more filament and time for me than running out of filament. I seem to be in the minority though.


I feel for you but I think what we are all saying is there doesn't seem to be much reason why they couldn't simply enable the pin to trigger a pause so that an official or DIY filament out sensor could be added now as it's going to take much longer for them to figure the clog detection. The wait for that will be the same either way.

I looked at your thread.. I haven't had this issue .. but on my Replicator 2X it was not able to print PLA (was advertised as being able to when I bought it) the main issue was heat creep up the tube. The filament would get too soft and then strip out. It sounds like you are able to reload the filament and start again. I still use my replicator and I bought some really cheap filament that prints on N2+ although not without some weirdness but at the temp settings I have been using on the replicator is acting a lot like what would happen when I tried to print PLA on it.. it would load fine and then maybe print okay for awhile and then it'd strip out. Maybe you are printing too hot?

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Julia Truchsess » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:27 am

basilfawlty wrote:And I'm in the opposite camp. An out of filament sensor would certainly be better than nothing but at least the filament is predictable. If I'm not sure if I have enough left on a spool I just weigh the spool. The vast majority of my issues are due to my ongoing battle with clogging. Since it's unpredictable, the clogging has wasted a LOT more filament and time for me than running out of filament. I seem to be in the minority though.


Sorry, how does clogging waste filament? The printer is clogged, no filament is coming out. Alerting you to the fact that the printer is clogged may save time if you're nearby to start a new print, but that's about it. At least with an out-of-filament pause in the middle of the night you can come in in the morning and load up a new spool. And yes, I've been through the spool weighing thing, but once you've enjoyed having an automatic-pause monitor you will never ever go back.

But as obfuscated and woofy have said, the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive - just provide a pause pin in the short term.

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basilfawlty
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby basilfawlty » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:48 am

Clogging wastes filament when you've got a print (some of mine are quite large) and the printer clogs at 90% complete. The entire print is wasted.
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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Julia Truchsess » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 pm

So the assumption is that the clog detector will be able to transport your print back in time to a point before filament stopped coming out of the nozzle? I know, I'm being obtuse. Maybe I'm too skeptical, and it can work better than I think. :)

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Noren
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Noren » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:04 pm

I'm also interested in detector for out of filament and breaks. :). Do Raise3D have and blog like other company's have there they update the community on current development and such?

Phife
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby Phife » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:21 pm

I think the current marlin firmware on our printers support a filament monitor, I know you can already make or purchase a filament monitor compatible with marlin firmware, perhaps it would not be so difficult to implement this. I managed to get a BL touch working on our printers, maybe we can do the same for something like this. Hopefully the community can bring this out before R3D gets around to it.

firesped
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby firesped » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:09 pm

in the marlin RC, there are sections for "Filament Runout Sensor" and "FILAMENT_WIDTH_SENSOR"

looking for filament movement sensor, I'm not seeing news on that front for over a year, dec 2015. the movement sensor requires a wheel against the filament to detect movement. using a bowden setup for the second extruder, this may a lot less likely to happen on that side as it would have to be before it enters the bowden side extruder. The only other place I could think to put it would be in the hole on the bondtech. on the direct driven side, it has to be installed before it goes into the PTFE tubing. This sensor also is going to put more load on the motion controller as well. because the sensor will send in a signal and the motion controller has to verify if it is a false positive. For instance, is the second extruder moving while the first is stopped.

This also brings up another possibility. If you installed filament movement sensors on the extruder, below the stepper motors, it might raise them high enough up to place the motors facing out to the sides, allowing for 2 direct drive extruders using a bondtech design. very complicated though. But then you have the added weight back on the extruder.

FILAMENT SENTINEL looks to be a runout sensor, not a movement sensor.

With what I know now about the back and forth talk to the motion controller and the touchscreen, you are not likely to get a pause, but a print restart from the point that the motion controller tells the touchscreen that it has a problem, aka filament runout. the potential issue here is that the print may be misaligned when it resumes. The good news is that the touchscreen will know exactly where it stopped.

I need to do some testing on the emergency parser but not sure it is implemented for everything yet.
RL name: Michael Nolen
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basilfawlty
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby basilfawlty » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:57 am

Julia Truchsess wrote:So the assumption is that the clog detector will be able to transport your print back in time to a point before filament stopped coming out of the nozzle? I know, I'm being obtuse. Maybe I'm too skeptical, and it can work better than I think. :)


I assume that the clog detection would pause clogged print jobs, letting us reload the filament and continue the job. Am I being overly optimistic?
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walshlg
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby walshlg » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:29 am

basilfawlty, I'm afraid so. You have a lot of retraction and travel during prints that looks an awful lot like a clog. To make sure there is a clog, you have to wait until a lot of time has past with no filament movement. So your print is still ruined.

The only alternative is to have real-time gcode analysis to test if the filament is moving as commanded. However its going to take a real-time computer or something much more advanced than a Marlin board to pull that off.

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basilfawlty
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby basilfawlty » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:34 am

I see. I figured the printer would be smart, i.e. compare expected to actual filament movement.

Well, if that's not the case then I don't really see the point in clog detection. Maybe I'm missing something.
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walshlg
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Re: Filament monitor

Postby walshlg » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:53 am

Its an interesting engineering problem. A fundamental limitation of small controller computers is that you send a buffer load of gcode at a time. There is no feedback as to where you are in that gcode at any moment.


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