Process Help

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
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rlballard
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Process Help

Postby rlballard » Thu May 12, 2016 3:28 am

I am designing a new Medical fitting which for all intents and purposes the design is solid however here is the catch, it is very small. Below are some basic dimensions to give you a flavor for small...

luer Hub.jpg


I wanted very high resolution and had a series of early failures at 0.01/0.025/0.05 layer heights. My next attempt was a combination starting at 0.1 from the base and at 20mm switching to 0.5mm for the body. This too failed I found when I came back into the office an hour or so later....

P5110008.JPG


Details:
Hatchbox PLA
Temp: 218
Nozzle: V2
layer height: 0.1mm changing to 0.05mm
Infill: 25%
Bed Temp: 60
No supports or raft
Printing Speed:75mm/s
Number of Parts: 6

Layout:
Layout.jpg


Some input would be appreciated, My only thought is to slow down to about 50mm/s

My final questions is this part too small for the N2? If so what are the size limitations if anyone including the Raise team can provide a little guidance...

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Process Help

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 12, 2016 3:56 am

Just make sure your size of your design? Is that by inch or mm?

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rlballard
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Re: Process Help

Postby rlballard » Thu May 12, 2016 4:00 am

Sorry, this is in inches...

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Process Help

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 12, 2016 4:41 am

Is it working well with 0.1?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Process Help

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 12, 2016 4:56 am

Is it sticking well to the build plate? Did you enable RAFT?

Jetguy
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Re: Process Help

Postby Jetguy » Thu May 12, 2016 7:31 am

Or use Brim and just break it off easily at the end.

Think of brim as raft minus a whole lot of time and wasted plastic.

Jetguy
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Re: Process Help

Postby Jetguy » Thu May 12, 2016 7:52 am

Also, the reason the tip is so distorted is heat. Yes, you are doing multiples but you might disable minimum layer time rather than going slower.
Per the guide https://www.simplify3d.com/support/prin ... verheating

It's a combination of settings and problems.
#1 Smaller layer height is more layers. The hot nozzle keeps dumping very small layers of very hot plastic and the small conical area of the tip cannot cool down, even in multiples.
#2 minimum layer time slowdown is not always the best fix. Here is an example- again small conical tips, a slow nozzle radiates and dumps heat as it dwells over each object slowly.
#3 While the stock cooling is OK on many "normal" parts, extreme parts like this might need additional cooling.

Here is what I would try in this situation first, and then next add additional cooling.
#1 Lower extrusion temp by 10C, maybe even 15C
#2 Lower bed temp to 50C and use Brim under the "Additions" tab by checking the skirt/brim box and changing the value of the "Skirt offset from part" from the default 4mm to 0mm. The only difference between skirt and brim is skirt doesn't touch the part and brim does. Brim as in brim of a hat. This is a combo to reduce heat and retain adhesion to the bed.
#2 Disable layer minimum time, in S3D, "Cooling" tab of profile, uncheck "Speed Overrides"
#3 Consider adding either an "Ooze Shield" or "Prime Pillar" on the "Additions" tab to make up for turning off minimum layer time slowdown.
#4 consider minimum layer height of 0.1mm rather than pushing 0.05mm.
Last edited by Jetguy on Thu May 12, 2016 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Process Help

Postby Julia Truchsess » Thu May 12, 2016 12:33 pm

I agree with Vernon, 50 or 100µ layers seems like overkill, and why the lower resolution at the bottom where it would appear to need higher resolution for the 1mm-high feature? Try it at 150 or 200µ to see what it looks like - even at 200µ you'll have 4 or 5 layers on that feature. A constant layer thickness might improve your chances of success too, but that's just a guess as I haven't played with variable thickness myself.

I also agree with the lower temp recommendation - 200-205º-ish. Never tried Hatchbox PLA so can't comment on the material.

This part should not be too small for successful printing I think, but every case is different.

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rlballard
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Re: Process Help

Postby rlballard » Thu May 12, 2016 2:25 pm

Great advice, I will give it a shot and let you know
Thanks...
BB

Andy Cohen
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Re: Process Help

Postby Andy Cohen » Thu May 12, 2016 3:20 pm

rlballard wrote:I am designing a new Medical fitting which for all intents and purposes the design is solid however here is the catch, it is very small. Below are some basic dimensions to give you a flavor for small...

luer Hub.jpg


I wanted very high resolution and had a series of early failures at 0.01/0.025/0.05 layer heights. My next attempt was a combination starting at 0.1 from the base and at 20mm switching to 0.5mm for the body. This too failed I found when I came back into the office an hour or so later....

P5110008.JPG


Details:
Hatchbox PLA
Temp: 218
Nozzle: V2
layer height: 0.1mm changing to 0.05mm
Infill: 25%
Bed Temp: 60
No supports or raft
Printing Speed:75mm/s
Number of Parts: 6

Layout:
Layout.jpg


Some input would be appreciated, My only thought is to slow down to about 50mm/s

My final questions is this part too small for the N2? If so what are the size limitations if anyone including the Raise team can provide a little guidance...

Without downward cooling and/or a thermal wrap on the hot block small objects with toolpaths that keep the hot end close will be a problem. If you add an object which is the same height it will force the slicer to make a path which pulls the hot end away and give the layer time to cool.
Another approach it to print them on their side. This will give you a stronger part anyways.

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Trhuster
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Re: Process Help

Postby Trhuster » Thu May 12, 2016 3:33 pm

I would love to try and print this. But i guess you can't share the files?

firesped
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Re: Process Help

Postby firesped » Thu May 12, 2016 5:08 pm

I was printing out some very small parts for a toy I was making. it finish in mear minutes on my high quality build and is probably deformed due to the factor that the cooling never touched the part. Rather then timing, I would get an active cooling system to blow air on the parts after they are printed, Andy Cohen's http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1355622 or my version of his, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1557752 (note: without an insulated hotend, you want this in a temperature resistant, low shrink material)

Then you want to put you parts down so after it prints the first one, the air from that will blow on the next one. then you probably want a fake part for the last one, so air is blown on that one as well.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

petrdel
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Re: Process Help

Postby petrdel » Thu May 12, 2016 6:35 pm

firesped wrote:I was printing out some very small parts for a toy I was making. it finish in mear minutes on my high quality build and is probably deformed due to the factor that the cooling never touched the part. Rather then timing, I would get an active cooling system to blow air on the parts after they are printed, Andy Cohen's http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1355622 or my version of his, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1557752 (note: without an insulated hotend, you want this in a temperature resistant, low shrink material)

Then you want to put you parts down so after it prints the first one, the air from that will blow on the next one. then you probably want a fake part for the last one, so air is blown on that one as well.


Firesped,

Did you use the the screws that are already there to mount your cooling system?
I would like to do this mod too.

firesped
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Re: Process Help

Postby firesped » Thu May 12, 2016 6:49 pm

I went to ace hardware and bought some screws, let me check which i got.

not sure what I got exactly. The holes for the 40mm fan has a diameters of 5mm. the mounts for the back have a hole diameter of 3.5 mm. I used a washer, screw and 2 nuts to mount the back to the the sides.

sides to back, you want something like 25mm long.

the back is 10.5 mm thick, so depending on the 40mm fan you put on it, you need screws for that length. I have a 10mm fan on it, a thicker fan will probably have better airflow push.
screw > washer > side part> nut > back part > nut

the sides mount onto the side with the ones that came with the machine.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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rlballard
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Re: Process Help

Postby rlballard » Fri May 13, 2016 3:16 am

Here is the update, I followed Jetguys input:

Jetguy wrote:Also, the reason the tip is so distorted is heat. Yes, you are doing multiples but you might disable minimum layer time rather than going slower.
Per the guide https://www.simplify3d.com/support/prin ... verheating

It's a combination of settings and problems.
#1 Smaller layer height is more layers. The hot nozzle keeps dumping very small layers of very hot plastic and the small conical area of the tip cannot cool down, even in multiples.
#2 minimum layer time slowdown is not always the best fix. Here is an example- again small conical tips, a slow nozzle radiates and dumps heat as it dwells over each object slowly.
#3 While the stock cooling is OK on many "normal" parts, extreme parts like this might need additional cooling.

Here is what I would try in this situation first, and then next add additional cooling.
#1 Lower extrusion temp by 10C, maybe even 15C
#2 Lower bed temp to 50C and use Brim under the "Additions" tab by checking the skirt/brim box and changing the value of the "Skirt offset from part" from the default 4mm to 0mm. The only difference between skirt and brim is skirt doesn't touch the part and brim does. Brim as in brim of a hat. This is a combo to reduce heat and retain adhesion to the bed.
#2 Disable layer minimum time, in S3D, "Cooling" tab of profile, uncheck "Speed Overrides"
#3 Consider adding either an "Ooze Shield" or "Prime Pillar" on the "Additions" tab to make up for turning off minimum layer time slowdown.
#4 consider minimum layer height of 0.1mm rather than pushing 0.05mm.


Process Settings:

Temp: 205
Bed Temperature: 50
Layer Height:0.1mm
Skirt/Brim: 2 layers/ 4 outlines/ 0.0mm offset
Ooze Shield
Infill: 100%
Speed Override Unchecked
Printing Speed: 60mm/s
Minimum Layer time, I did not find this option

Layout:

Layout-1.jpg


Extrusion Results:

P5120012.JPG
P5120013.JPG


Extruders are Insulated with high temperature ceramic and Kapton tape:

extruders.jpg
extruders.jpg (33.32 KiB) Viewed 5414 times


So for sake of argument I will run again with a new material to see if that makes a difference. I have the following, any preferences?

- MeltInk PLA/PHA
- 3D Solutech PLA
- Raise 3D PLA
- Hatchbox PLA
- Quantum PLA

Now for background, I have just come off of a 60-hr and 20-hr Back-to-Back run with Quantium PLA and Hatchbox PLA with zero issues running both extruders at 218 but this was a very large part obviously.

P5100001.JPG


When not in printing mode for more than a few days, spools are removed and place into vacuum sealed bags with two 45 gram reusable dry packs that are baked out when saturated.

Let me know your thoughts, this is a tough one to tackle and I need your help...
BB

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Process Help

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 13, 2016 7:05 am

Is that the same height as your first fail? If it is almost the same height, I suggest you check the gcode. Would you like to share the file with us, we can check that for you.

Why did you set the infill as 100%? Typo?

If you want to change filament, I suggest the stock PLA.

Just make sure, was the model sticked to the buildtak well? I saw a little layer shifting.

AR_LA
Posts: 262
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Re: Process Help

Postby AR_LA » Fri May 13, 2016 4:25 pm

I'm really interested to see this work. I bought the printer to do similar items (but 150mm tall), ideally 100% infill too.

Would more temp resilient filaments help?

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dhylands
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Re: Process Help

Postby dhylands » Fri May 13, 2016 6:20 pm

If you're using 100% infill, you want to really make sure that you're not overextruding, so you might want to try backing off 5-10%.

I've been using 80% (still on V1 nozzles and the associated firmware) with the Raise3D filament (rather than the 88%)

AR_LA
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Re: Process Help

Postby AR_LA » Fri May 13, 2016 7:01 pm

80% flow rate?
Is it 88% on the V1 by default?
Edit:
How about the infil overlap? Do you decrease that too?

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dhylands
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Re: Process Help

Postby dhylands » Fri May 13, 2016 8:25 pm

It was set to 88%, and I was still getting nozzle "buzzing" when it moved over solid layers that were just laid down, which is indicative of over extruding. I didn't change anything else other than the flow rate.

When you have < 100% infill and it overextrudes a bit you just slightly wider infill walls (and perhaps some dimensonal increase). But when at 100% infill it there is no place for the extra plastic to go, so it build up a little bit higher than the nozzle (which causes the ridges that the nozzle bumps into when moving across the layer it just laid down).

My top layers still look solid at 80% flow rate.


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