Catastrophic Printing Failure

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Vagulus
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Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby Vagulus » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:24 am

This is what I was trying to print:
2000602-ideaMakerView-640x387.png

There are two parts - they fit the pillars of a prototype I am working on. They are quite large:
200602_PrintLayout-640x480.png

My machine is a Pro2 fitted with 0.8 mm nozzles. Overnight it created this:
200602_Progression-640x480.png

It printed okay with all the support and the back plate (1) but from there it progressively moved (positive) along the 'Y' axis (2 to 3). Then there was a catastrophic jump (negative) along the 'Y' axis to (4) and complete unreliability on the 'Y' axis (4 to 5). (4 to 5) also shows 'X' axis variation. To say I was a little unhappy was a just being Politically Correct! :evil:

My culprit (I am pretty sure but I won't know until I reprint) turns out to be curvature developed in the Bed Plate:
200602_BowedPrintPlate-480x640.png

My conclusion is that the cooling shrinkage of such a large mass of material buckled the plate popping it clear of the thumbscrews which hold in in place along the 'Y' axis. Certainly, when I removed the models the Bed Plate straightened and fitted back into place normally.

Has anyone else had a similar disaster?
How did you ensure that it does not happen again?

All relevant files at https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvZ9amwal2YXkIELQyFQsS9AMhpbWw?e=vLc2BK.

Thanks
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DeX
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby DeX » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:44 am

what the sdhfbsdlfsd on the last photo?
I think your bed too close to the nozzle and the nozzle(s) hit printed layer. Did you watch how it is was printing? =)

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Vagulus
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby Vagulus » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:17 pm

DeX wrote:what the sdhfbsdlfsd on the last photo?

The 'sdhfbsdlfsd' is a Thumb Drive (A.K.A. USB Memory Stick or just plain wotchyamakallit). It is there to give you a sense of scale.
DeX wrote:I think your bed too close to the nozzle and the nozzle(s) hit printed layer.

It'd have to be pretty close to the bed to bend the plate like that and make it stay that way while the model was still stuck to the plate.
DeX wrote:Did you watch how it is was printing? =)

I was asleep.
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zemlin
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby zemlin » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:07 pm

What material are you printing?
I printed a 3KG PETG part covering nearly the entire bed a while back. I don't have the Pro - this was on an N2+. My first attempt was using a magnetic spring-steel bed and I had a similar issue. Enough warp in the part that it lifted the bed and caused the print to fail. For the two successful copies I printed after that I used a 1/4" aluminum bed with PEI sheet secured with double-sided 3D adhesive sheet. This resisted the warp and allowed me to get the part printed without issue.

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Vagulus
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby Vagulus » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:23 pm

Nice to know that I am not the only person in the world who has these problems? :D

zemlin wrote:What material are you printing?

eSun PLA+
zemlin wrote:I printed after that I used a 1/4" aluminum bed with PEI sheet secured with double-sided 3D adhesive sheet.

Is the Ally bed a standard part? Did you have it cut?
What's PEI?
Tell me about 'double-sided 3D adhesive sheet'?

Thanks
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God so loved the World that
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ccclarke
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby ccclarke » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:04 pm

You wanna see a catastrophic printing failure?

This is how our Pro2 Plus greeted me when I arrived at work this morning. The Left hot end had spun off the throat and was embedded in the print; but the extruder kept on trucking, and had vomited about 10 meters of filament inside the printer during the night. The (unused) Right hot end heater block had sheared off at the throat and been dragged around the printing area.

Un-frikin-believeable. . . Our N2Plus prints for days; it chokes every other month, but this "improved" printer has about a 50% success rate on most jobs. The second you turn your back on it, something goes wrong. This pig is cursed, and spends more time idle then working. Amazingly, none of the couplers had sheared. We have a nice compliment of spares, so I was able to replace the Left hot end, and installed a new throat on the Right hot end.

As usual, the Raise3D procedures are sub-standard and required extensive editing to add to our (growing) library of revised procedures that live in a binder adjacent to the printer.

A workmanship suggestion Raise3D:

Do NOT tin the wires on the termination side of the heaters! These wires are secured in terminal blocks on the Extruder PCB. If you're using IPC workmanship standards, (I'm a certified instructor as well as an engineer) conductors that are meant to be crushed using crimps, lugs, or terminal blocks should never be tinned - that's a Defect for all three workmanship classes. If you aren't building and certifying your factory technicians to IPC electronic workmanship standards, you should be. This was a huge red flag workmanship-wise and prompted me to inspect the rest of the electronics. What I found would have our QC department looking for new career paths.

The electronics workmanship in the Pro2 (I haven't had to disassemble the other printer yet) is not ready for prime time at this price point. Strain relief on most of the connectors (especially on the Motor Driver PCB) is non-existent. The 24vdc power were bent at a 90 angle and supporting the weight of the adjacent harness it was bundled to. A properly-designed cable bracket should be installed into the lower section of the chassis. Cables when bundled and run vertically like this should never be supported by connectors - this is what brackets are designed for!!!

As a large company, we can shell out $6k for defective hardware and it isn't a big deal. We can even modify it ourselves and make it more reliable. But as someone who is considering buying a high-end prosumer printer (like an E2) for a home business,, I would be hard-pressed to consider spending my own money on a Raise3D product. Unless the E2 is a generational leap over the Pro2, I'll look elsewhere after monitoring it's satisfaction on the this forum. (Yes, I know owners with printers that never break rarely post).

I loaded new Raise3D PLA filament yesterday and printed two test items without a problem before loading a 29-hour print prior to leaving work. Both hot ends had their Z-height offset calibrated, were securely fastened, and operated all afternoon prior to this. Even the build plate was lifted!

Disaster Strikes (4).JPG
Disaster Strikes (3).JPG
Disaster Strikes (2).JPG


Epic fail!
Last edited by ccclarke on Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Male Modeler / Sub-Human

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Vagulus
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby Vagulus » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:13 am

ccclarke wrote:This is how our Pro2 Plus greeted me when I arrived at work this morning. The Left hot end had spun off the throat and was embedded in the print; but the extruder kept on trucking, and had vomited about 10 meters of filament inside the printer during the night. The (unused) Right hot end heater block had sheared off at the throat and been dragged around the printing area.

N.B.: These are purely mechanical problems.
ccclarke wrote:Our N2Plus prints for days; it chokes every other month, but this "improved" printer has about a 50% success rate on most jobs. The second you turn your back on it, something goes wrong. This pig is cursed, and spends more time idle then working. Amazingly, none of the couplers had sheared. We have a nice compliment of spares, so I was able to replace the Left hot end, and installed a new throat on the Right hot end.

I, too, have discovered that a complement of spares is mere prudence. Our National Agent is seven to ten days delivery away - that's if they have the spares. Currently I am only using the Left Nozzle because the Agent did not carry the AU$20 Nozzle Switching Servo and is currently awaiting supply from China.
ccclarke wrote:As usual, the Raise3D procedures are sub-standard and required extensive editing by me to add to our (growing) library of revised procedures that live in a binder adjacent to the printer.

I regularly send notes to the Raise3D Support people suggesting changes to documentation to make it somewhere near useful. Raise3D Documentation is certainly of a poor standard.
I
ccclarke wrote:f you aren't building and certifying your factory technicians to IPC electronic workmanship standards, you should be.

See N.B. above - your problems were mechanical but your suggestions concentrate on the electronic. Although your observations on the Electronic Standards appear perfectly valid they are a bit of a sidetrack in a case of mechanical failure.
ccclarke wrote:Strain relief on most of the connectors (especially on the Motor Driver PCB) is non-existent. The 24vdc power were bent at a 90 angle and supporting the weight of the adjacent harness it was bundled to. A properly-designed cable bracket should be installed into the lower section of the chassis. Cables when bundled and run vertically like this should never be supported by connectors - this is what brackets are designed for!!!

I can't agree more. The cabling layout on my Pro2 might have won Third Prize in an Elementary School competition. Continually dis-assembling much of the machine to re-run one wire is a PITA - to be Politically Correct. You want to hear that in the Australian vernacular! :roll:
ccclarke wrote:As a large company, we can shell out $6k for defective hardware and it isn't a big deal. We can even modify it ourselves and make it more reliable. But as someone who is considering buying a high-end printer for a home business,, I would be hard-pressed to consider spending my own money on a Raise3D product. I am not impressed.

Raise3D are certainly at risk of getting a bad rep but that's not going to help me. I have already bought the beast. I am having to learn to live with it.
ccclarke wrote:I loaded new filament yesterday and printed two test items without a problem then loading a 29-hour print before I left work. Both hot ends were calibrated, securely fastened, and operating fine prior to this.

Glad to know you're back running. ;)
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God so loved the World that
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zemlin
Posts: 527
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby zemlin » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:37 am

Vagulus wrote:]
Is the Ally bed a standard part? Did you have it cut?

The aluminum bed is not a standard part. Cast aluminum jig plate - it comes machined flat. I can get a 12x12 piece on eBay for about $25 (in the US). Also called MIC6 aluminum. I modified my machines years ago to make it easy for me to secure alternative bed materials using 3D printed tabs. I have cut the aluminum before. I have an old carbide blade for my table saw that can get the job done.

IMG_0593.jpg


IMG_0591.jpg


IMG_0590.jpg


Vagulus wrote:]What's PEI?


PEI is the yellow plastic shown on the build plate in the images above. I like to use at least 1mm thick material. I usually get 1.5mm (1/16"). I find it to be a great build surface for many materials. I don't print a lot of PLA, but I have used the PEI for that. A brand name is Ultem. It is popular for 3D printing and should not be hard to find. About the only thing I don't print on PEI is nylon. ABS, PETG, Polycarbonate, PLA, all do well.

Vagulus wrote:]Tell me about 'double-sided 3D adhesive sheet'?

3M 468MP Adhesive Transfer tape - it's available in 12"x12" squares. It takes some practice to get the PEI bonded to the aluminum without bubbles, but if you're careful and work your way across the plate while pealing out the release paper it's not too hard.

This stuff doesn't last forever. Over time the adhesive dries out and the edges of the sheet start to lift. When that happens i put the plate in the freezer. Once good and cold the PEI pops right off. Most of the adhesive stays on the metal plate, so I soak that in acetone to clean it up. I might have to do this once a year, if that often.

Another tip is to use 1500 grit wet-dry sandpaper and wet sand the surface of the PEI. That gives is just a little more grab. Don't go coarser - more is not better in this case.

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Vagulus
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Re: Catastrophic Printing Failure

Postby Vagulus » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:21 am

Gee! You really have got stuck into this!
Thanks for explaining.
I'll investigate
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