Delamination problem

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:09 pm

Here are some common ways to improve the quality of the supported surfaces:
- Dense support layers
- Higher support infill ratio
- Lower Support horizontal offset
- PVA

You can start from the first three which are adjusting settings in ideaMaker.

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:23 am

I lowered Support Horizontal Offset from 0.7 (default) to 0.5 then hardened up the Dense Support by going from Lines to Grid and increasing the layers of dense support from 2 to 4. This gave me the best results yet - top ->
200403-TopSurface-640x478.jpg

bottom - printed on support on right ->
200403-Bottom-RightSupport-640x478.jpg


While this is a vast improvement you can still see the stringy extrusion effect. Even on the top surface which looks pretty good the lines of filament do not fuse properly
200403-TopSurfaceDetail-478x640.jpg


Is it possible to get these 'strings' of extruded filament to fuse together into one layer? I have read and re-read the ideaMaker Manual and cannot figure out what will squish the filament threads sideways until they merge.
Attachments
200403-TopSurface.JPG
200403-Bottom-RightSupport.JPG
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:48 am

The section I marked out in the attached picture should can imporve the result.
You can consider add one " Top surface solid layer" then change the flowrate for that layer individually.
Attachments
Image_20200403174730.png

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 am

Oh ... I've been playing round with those alright. In Extruder I put Extrusion Width up to 0.48 from the default 0.40 (0.40x1.2). That helped a bit
200404-Layer-640x441.png

and
200404-SolidFill-640x441.png


The trouble is that all my playing with Extrusion Width Percentage got me nowhere :(

At 110% Extrusion Width Percentage I get Top
200404-110-Top-478x640.jpg

and Bottom
200404-110-Bottom-478x640.jpg

While at 80% I get Top
200404-80-Top-478x640.jpg

and Bottom much the same as at 110% - this site won't accept the picture but you can take my word for it.

The simple fact is that Extrusion Width makes no difference to the actual printing. It looks pretty in ideaMaker but makes little or no change to the gCode. To my way of thinking it should. Do we have a Slicer Problem?
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:36 pm

This is the pic of 80% Bottom I couldn't get on the previous post
200404-80-Bottom-478x640.jpg
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:40 am

I don't think the issue is caused by Extrusion Width. It should most likely be related to top surface flow and retraction settings.
Your model doesn't look like need 4 top/bottom surface solid fill layers. Try only one and that will help with the top layer being as smooth and consistant as possible.
You can also try change the top/bottom surface solid fill extrusion width percentage back to 100 and only adjust flowrarte and see whether the result turns out better.

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:16 am

Well ... I had a go at that printing a string of iterations Until the flowrate got to 150%. Once again, changing the variables in ideaMaker had little, if any, effect on the model.
200408-SolidFill.png

This is the top where, I must say, the cracks between the filament strings have filled
200408-150%Flowrate-Top-478x640.jpg

And here is the bottom - this model was printed on 1.5 mm of support -
200408-150%Flowrate-Bottom-478x640.jpg


I am attaching the STL file again. Try this yourself, Vicky, and show me what you get. I would like to see if you can get a bottom layer printed on support to give a clean, sealed surface using a Pro2.
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:16 pm

Got it. We will try print it out and let you know the result.

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:19 am

Are you having any luck. That was 12 days ago. I know we had public holidays etc. but I'd like to know if you have actually tried this and how you got on.
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:23 pm

We haven't achieved a better result that what you have with PLA and PLA. And just a little better with PLA and PVA.

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:17 am

Are you happy with that or are you finding a way to fix it?
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:32 am

We can't get better result with PLA support. If you are looking for more smoother surface, you will need to try PVA.

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:12 am

If you look closely at this
200401-SupportTest-Bottom-478x640.jpg

it should seem obvious that the issue is not one of surface finish per se but one of the extruded filament not spreading (flattening) so as to bond with the adjacent filaments. It should, but the issue is that no adjustments you make in ideaMaker change the extrusion process. Changing the variables pertaining to extrusion makes no difference to what actually happens.

That, to me, sounds like a software problem rather than a support material problem. I would go looking for a numeric literal being used in the code instead of a variable reference. That's a common trick in code prototyping and is commonly followed by the common error of not replacing the literal with the variable for production. Run that idea past your software team.

Are you a betting girl?
Attachments
200401-SupportTest-Bottom.JPG
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

User avatar
Vagulus
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vagulus » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:12 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:We can't get better result with PLA support.


Here is a far better test piece - 'Pancake' - STL attached.
200426-PancakeModel.png
200426-PancakeModel.png (14.36 KiB) Viewed 1454 times

This is the best I can get - Top
200426_PancakesTop-640x480.jpg

- Bottom
200426_PancakesBottom-640x480.jpg


I am using 0.8 mm nozzles so the resolution of the embossed text is probably the cause of much of the trouble with the top surfaces. Beside that, the flat surface finishes are, one might say, not particularly good. In less polite company I might be less complimentary. :shock:

I purchased a Raise3D machine on the understanding that it is a commercial quality machine capable of producing commercial quality products. You must be able to do more than merely dismiss the issue because you, "... can't get better result ..."

I am currently prototyping a machine with some bulky parts so the 0.8 mm nozzles are fitted to give me greater deposition rates. I might be able to get better finishes using 0.4 mm nozzles but I would like the parts printed before Halloween. Please support my effort by coming up with solutions.

BTW: when you print Pancake, remember to add support between the discs. I don't thing even a Pro2 will print in midair. :o

Stay well
Attachments
Pancake.stl
(215.12 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
--------------------------------------------
God so loved the World that
He did not send a Committee

Online
User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 6756
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Delamination problem

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:43 am

I over heard from my co-worker that you have an open ticket with him. He suggests that you contact with him directly instead of asking questions both on forum and in tickets.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests