Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

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AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:36 am

Like the title states.

I'm trying to print some tubes, so already it's not ideal. They're about 18mm OD, 12mm ID and 160mm tall... so it's really not ideal. I'm using colorfabb XT and dialed in the settings to get no curling but the prints are toppling over around the 120mm mark.

I first tried glue stick on buildtak at 55, then 65, then 75. Then went to hairspray on the buildtak at 70, then 80. In all of these, the surface felt more slick when heated with the glues than without. I tried with a raft, with a 10 perimeter wide skirt.

Right now i'm running it again on the glass with hairspray at 80C and a 10 perimeter skirt. I may try 20 or more if it topples again, but it really seems like it's just not adhering to the bed, like after a few hours it just doesn't hold. When the part topples over, I don't hear that pop that I'm used to when I remove a part that has good adhesion. In fact in the past when I've printed these parts, the part itself usually comes off and the raft or skirt stays on the plate.

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Phife
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby Phife » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:07 am

I print stuff like that all the time.. even full beds of tall skinny tubes.

Things I do for success:

-I applied a sheet a PEI w/ adhesive onto the other side of the glass sheet, I use the buildtak side for PLA as it sticks to that better and everything else is on PEI. No more glues, tapes or sprays. I dont even use the bed clips, my glass is sitting on silicone pads and working great. no more running into bed clips. You can get a large enough sheet of PEI from here.
http://catalog.cshyde.com/item/3d-print ... 3-75x13-75

-Remove the nozzle from the second hotend or remove the entire second hotend if you have one, I find that I was having trouble with the second nozzle hitting prints.

-BLTouch Bed Level probe, No more adjusting the bed, My bed is now locked down and the probe adjusts for any out of level issues. This is not easy to add and as long as you are good at leveling your bed, its probably not needed.

-I only need to add 5-6 skirts to the prints and havent had any fall over.

-Make sure your filament is properly calibrated, Measure your filament in multiple spots and be sure you have it set correctly in the slicer. Print lots of calibration cubes to make sure everything is as good as you can get it. I really only need to print one or two to get the settings right.

-Colorfabb XT is a Co-polyester, Ive printed this material in the past but Ive had issues with it sticking to the buildtak or glass, sticks to PEI extremely well, I suggest if you really want to print that material, you upgrade your bed surface. Buildtak is not really that great at much else other than PLA IMO.
Last edited by Phife on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:42 am

Thanks. I just ordered the bts plate also, but I'll order a pei sheet and try that out too on my spare borosilicate glass plate.

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walshlg
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Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby walshlg » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:00 pm

fwiw, print with the doors closed. When my buildtack gave up it was worthless. try flipping it over and just use the glass side with hairspray or gluestick - both should be the purple kind

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:03 pm

Partial success while waiting for the pei.

Hairspray did not work on glass either. It really seems to make the surface more slick when warm. I don't get, but I guess it works for some people.

Since heat really seems to be breaking down the adhesives, I dialed bed temp back to 45C and layer down a thick helping of gluestick. While previous attempts had a perfectly smushed first layer, this one was ugly and made me think it would clog any moment. But it worked, I was able to finish 1 part. I know removing it is going to be a pain but better than waking up to the part on its side and a birds nest of XT. I'll try with 2 pieces later today.

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walshlg
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Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby walshlg » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:30 pm

OK another trick, decrease nozzle Z ht to 100 um (one thickness of copy paper) and also decrease first layer offset to 75% of layer heighth

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:27 pm

The problem isn't getting plastic to stick. It's that after about a half dozen hours, adhesion goes away. In the first few hours if I remove the part the raft stays. After 6+ hours everything just loosens.

And I am printing enclosed.

If I can get consistent results with heavy glue at 45, then I'll take it.

I asked colorfabb if it's possible the heat makes the filament release oil. I can't think of a logical reason why bed adhesion would be so consistently temporary. Plus more heat doesn't seem to be helping.

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jmp
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Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby jmp » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:22 pm

AR_LA wrote:Hairspray did not work on glass either.


What hairspray did you use? Only two work, aquanet super hold or garnier fructis hold level 5.
RL Name: Jason Preuss Thingiverse: JMP Youtube:http://youtube.com/c/patterntoprint Website: http://www.patterntoprint.com

Rockman
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:53 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby Rockman » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:28 am

I also suggest PEI as a print bed surface.... Works very well.. Don't use BuildTak anymore....
I print pla, petg, carbon fiber-pla on PEI with no issues.

For Polycarbonate I use glass with a smear of ABS juice and it sticks great.

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:45 am

@jmp: I was told that these ingredients are what's needed: VA/Crotonates/Vinyl Nedecanoate Copolymer, Acrylates Copolymer

I couldn't get aquanaut, so I got aussie. Had the stated active ingredients. It worked fine for a while. I got 5/6 of the way done on one of the prints. Then it just lets go like that chick from Titanic.

PC will actually bond do the buildtak really, really well in my experience.

What I've got going for me right now is a lower bed temp, liberal glue stick. and hitting it with a dab of alcohol right before the print really seems to re-activate the adhesive by rehydrating it. First layer goes down, and then they bond and harden together... Hopefully I'll be more confident in another 8 hours.

Phife
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby Phife » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:39 am

Try underextruding a little bit, It sounds like maybe your layers are slightly too thick and build up over many layers, then the nozzle hits the now too thick layer and knocks off the whole part. Though, you should probably be able to hear it hitting the print if youre listening.

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:31 am

That was the first thing I did. I've been printing these since I got my printer in spring. The design is absolutely unforgiving to any upward curling or overextrusion.

I may be underextruding a tad, but just down enough to not get any buildup on the nozzle. And verified with a solid calibration cube.

Gluestick is holding up so far at 45C. If the next couple prints work out I'll try running more at a time.

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walshlg
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Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby walshlg » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:43 pm

someone posted a nifty idea- design the part with big tabs that extend all the way to the edge of the print and pause and put clips onto those tabs.

AR_LA
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Having Bed Adhesion Troubles

Postby AR_LA » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:52 pm

Yeah, I'm also thinking of figuring out how to support the part on the exterior so that a little wobble doesn't compromise the entire print. Since I'm printing a tube, even a short cylinder inside the tube can help.

Also, 20 line brim won't hurt, and it's not much more time in the grand scheme


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