Buildtak

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
Night Shift
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Night Shift » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:33 pm

I operate all my forum accounts in the same manner I deal with people face to face. If someone asks for information and is kind I am kind in return, if someone is being less then kind I return the favor.

Ill tone it down for a bit until people get used to the way I communicate.

My opinion on the matter is:

BuildTak works well for large and small foot print models when it has had under 20 prints on it. The key to getting it to release is not really about using glue or something but having a good spatula. Sharpen the spatula and round off the corners a bit and you can get under the most hard to release surfaces. I tend to set the level for BuildTak to around 250µ so that there is a slight amount of squish for the first layer of raft and part, any closer and you risk welding certain filament types to the surface (im looking at you PolyPlus). Since I started using the spatula in this way I have not put a hole through any BuildTak surfaces. Another part of the issue can be when to remove the part from the plate, if done when cold the part can pop right off but that causes stress to the glass plate which can lead to cracks in the glass. I prefer to remove all parts while the plate is hot because I like having no fingerprints and I do not risk damage to the glass plate.

-NS

Andy Cohen
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:24 pm

Night Shift wrote:Hello all!

I just had to make an account and pop in on this thread and give my opinion seeing as though we have one that is out of control!

So what do we have here? Post #7 by Andy Cohen, the problematic phrase used and taken as an offence is as follows: "Buildtak is great for those who do not know better. Keep printing. In time you will know better too." Later threatening someone by calling them out on a podcast! Andy "Mark" Cohen, inside joke for a few of you, it may be a large pill to swallow but pride does not mean anything on a forum. Seeing a username will not tell you a thing about their experiences with a preferred method in printing.

Next is this jewel: "note that the N2/N2+ bed plate is 13.75x13.75 (which means you have to buy it from R3D), sells for $55.82! Thats with Amazon Prime. Looking at the R3D website they sell it for $34.99. Now $34.99". But did you know that the printable area on the N2+ is only 12x12 inches! The measurement starts from the end stops in the front left too, so if you did want to circumvent Raise prices you can. It sounds like you are leaving out information to justify some sort of argument.

I don't have any clue as to what this AQ stuff is or why anyone would use it but I use 5 or 6 build plate adhesive methods in printing. In order of preference: Glass and Purple Glue, Perforated plate with ABS juce, BuildTak, Glass with ABS juce, Perforated plate dry. I currently use the following machines: Zortrax M200, Up Plus pro, Afinia H479/480, Up Mini, Raise N1, Raise N2/+, Afinia H800, Giant (600x600x800mm build area). you could say I have access to a lot of toys and know how to run them all and know what works best on each machine.

Mark please come join us back in the land of sensible discussion and debate. It is nice over here we have cotton candy, popcorn, and beer! (see what I did there?)

-NS


Actually I was wrong about the dimensions of the plate it's smaller then 13.75... I think it is around 13.5... I do not get your point about the 12x12inch build area. With so many printers you should already know that it is best to have the entire plate covered with whatever you are using. The plate on the N2 is not 12x12. So if you are saying that you could use a 12x12 inch piece and leave the edges bare and as such buy it anywhere then sure! Go get a cheaper, smaller one!
Glue stick works the closest to Aquanet (AQ) but it is gooey, lifts completely off the bed on to the object and makes for a rougher surface then Aquanet. If you can't get Aquanet then Gluestick is an adequate alternative, but not IMO nearly as optimal. BuildTak? Blue tape properly used correctly is better then that crap! If you do not agree with my opinion and are all emotionally bent out of shape about my stating it then that is too bad. I am sorry you get so hurt so easily. I sometimes resort to slurry for ABS but the fumes and difficulty in part removal makes it horrible! But you go ahead and use what you like. I do not care what you or synthius or Julia use. Maybe you can also let me in on whatever this "inside joke" is? Mark lives in NY, I live in CA.

3DWannaBe
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:29 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby 3DWannaBe » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:31 pm

Buildtak is garbage! The poster is right. That stuff will ruin your work! What the heck is wrong with some of you!?

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John@Raise3D
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:42 am

Re: Buildtak

Postby John@Raise3D » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:32 am

3DWannaBe wrote:Buildtak is garbage! The poster is right. That stuff will ruin your work! What the heck is wrong with some of you!?

You can state your point over Buildtak. However, please stay on the subject and you do not need to add the last sentence.

3DWannaBe
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:29 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby 3DWannaBe » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:55 am

John@Raise3D wrote:
3DWannaBe wrote:Buildtak is garbage! The poster is right. That stuff will ruin your work! What the heck is wrong with some of you!?

You can state your point over Buildtak. However, please stay on the subject and you do not need to add the last sentence.

I just cannot see why people are attacking the OP on what i agree with! Why don't you warn them too??? Seems to me they were the more nasty!

Matthew Lozano
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:25 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Matthew Lozano » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:49 am

On the subject of BuildTak I was planning to remove it at the first chance I got. However I have gotten used to it for the most part, while I'm still not sold on it I do admit that it tends to just work for the mid sized prints I normally print. Only real issue I have with it is the larger and none flexible parts that can at times need a good deal of force to remove from the bed. I like the low maintenance of the BuildTak but for the "best" surface as far as sticking when you want and removing when you want and works for more then just PLA hair spray is still my go to at the cost of a bit more maintenance and reapplication.

Once it wears or if I start printing other type of plastic out I suspect I will change to hair spray but until then BuildTak is working for the PLA prints I have been doing.

Andy Cohen
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:32 pm

Matthew Lozano wrote:On the subject of BuildTak I was planning to remove it at the first chance I got. However I have gotten used to it for the most part, while I'm still not sold on it I do admit that it tends to just work for the mid sized prints I normally print. Only real issue I have with it is the larger and none flexible parts that can at times need a good deal of force to remove from the bed. I like the low maintenance of the BuildTak but for the "best" surface as far as sticking when you want and removing when you want and works for more then just PLA hair spray is still my go to at the cost of a bit more maintenance and reapplication.

Once it wears or if I start printing other type of plastic out I suspect I will change to hair spray but until then BuildTak is working for the PLA prints I have been doing.

I had to remove it to get the part off the plate without the plate breaking. Even raising the temp of the bed to 110C would not do it for a 100% infill cal cube. However, if that had not happened I would have left it on since removing it is a PITA and flipped the bed over. As stated by John or someone else at R3D, the stuff is good from a safety standpoint. The REAL downside to glass beds is they break. As it is an even better approach I am finding was to go to my local Ace HW and spend $10 for a pair of 13.5x13.5" plate glass plates and simply use them instead. One with AQ, one with slurry, one with PVA. I'll be putting very wide Kapton under the cheap plate glass plates for safety from breakage.

synthius
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:04 pm

Andy Cohen wrote:
Matthew Lozano wrote:On the subject of BuildTak I was planning to remove it at the first chance I got. However I have gotten used to it for the most part, while I'm still not sold on it I do admit that it tends to just work for the mid sized prints I normally print. Only real issue I have with it is the larger and none flexible parts that can at times need a good deal of force to remove from the bed. I like the low maintenance of the BuildTak but for the "best" surface as far as sticking when you want and removing when you want and works for more then just PLA hair spray is still my go to at the cost of a bit more maintenance and reapplication.

Once it wears or if I start printing other type of plastic out I suspect I will change to hair spray but until then BuildTak is working for the PLA prints I have been doing.

I had to remove it to get the part off the plate without the plate breaking. Even raising the temp of the bed to 110C would not do it for a 100% infill cal cube. However, if that had not happened I would have left it on since removing it is a PITA and flipped the bed over. As stated by John or someone else at R3D, the stuff is good from a safety standpoint. The REAL downside to glass beds is they break. As it is an even better approach I am finding was to go to my local Ace HW and spend $10 for a pair of 13.5x13.5" plate glass plates and simply use them instead. One with AQ, one with slurry, one with PVA. I'll be putting very wide Kapton under the cheap plate glass plates for safety from breakage.



Use an Xacto Chisel to get under the corners and then use the Raise3D supplied spatula to finish the rest of the job and it comes off. This is the technique I use to remove every print, small or large.

Andy Cohen
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:36 pm

synthius wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:
Matthew Lozano wrote:On the subject of BuildTak I was planning to remove it at the first chance I got. However I have gotten used to it for the most part, while I'm still not sold on it I do admit that it tends to just work for the mid sized prints I normally print. Only real issue I have with it is the larger and none flexible parts that can at times need a good deal of force to remove from the bed. I like the low maintenance of the BuildTak but for the "best" surface as far as sticking when you want and removing when you want and works for more then just PLA hair spray is still my go to at the cost of a bit more maintenance and reapplication.

Once it wears or if I start printing other type of plastic out I suspect I will change to hair spray but until then BuildTak is working for the PLA prints I have been doing.

I had to remove it to get the part off the plate without the plate breaking. Even raising the temp of the bed to 110C would not do it for a 100% infill cal cube. However, if that had not happened I would have left it on since removing it is a PITA and flipped the bed over. As stated by John or someone else at R3D, the stuff is good from a safety standpoint. The REAL downside to glass beds is they break. As it is an even better approach I am finding was to go to my local Ace HW and spend $10 for a pair of 13.5x13.5" plate glass plates and simply use them instead. One with AQ, one with slurry, one with PVA. I'll be putting very wide Kapton under the cheap plate glass plates for safety from breakage.



Use an Xacto Chisel to get under the corners and then use the Raise3D supplied spatula to finish the rest of the job and it comes off. This is the technique I use to remove every print, small or large.

This is kinda how the hoopla started. Of course I attempted to use a razor sharp, flat tool. I use a razor scraper to attempt to get underneath. As I wrote before eventually the Buildtak and object bond. The object may be too strong to bend a little as my 100% cal cube was and the BuildTak is too tough to bend upward a little. Damage to the plate or the BuildTak are inevitable. Printing a large number of very different kinds of prints makes being able to determine beforehand whether or not one will get into a situation where the object will not come off... even using a Facto chisel to get a tiny start. As such I recommend not getting into the habit of depending on the stuff and simply remove it from the task flow.

Another warning... if you flip the plate and use Glue stick or AQ you really do not want to flip it back to the BuildTak unless you remove the AQ or Gluestick first. If I ever would do that... or need to clean off the Glue Stick or AQ I use the razor scrapper.

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John@Raise3D
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:42 am

Re: Buildtak

Postby John@Raise3D » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:40 am

3DWannaBe wrote:
John@Raise3D wrote:
3DWannaBe wrote:Buildtak is garbage! The poster is right. That stuff will ruin your work! What the heck is wrong with some of you!?

You can state your point over Buildtak. However, please stay on the subject and you do not need to add the last sentence.

I just cannot see why people are attacking the OP on what i agree with! Why don't you warn them too??? Seems to me they were the more nasty!


If you agree with OP, then state your point that you agree with OP. Not necessary to take it onto others.
There is 'forum rules' now. Please follow. Thanks for your cooperation.

GoffyOne
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:21 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Buildtak

Postby GoffyOne » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:35 am

Perhaps an alternative could be the Zebra plate from printinz. I use it on my smaler 3d printers and it works good on PLA, haven´t used it on anything else yet. Unfortunetly it isn´t cheep. I asked them for cost of a size 332mm x 340mm and for a plate its $96 and for the Zebra Skin is $38. anyone used the zebra skin?

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Julia Truchsess
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:30 pm
Location: Connecticut
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Julia Truchsess » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:54 pm

GoffyOne wrote:Perhaps an alternative could be the Zebra plate from printinz. I use it on my smaler 3d printers and it works good on PLA, haven´t used it on anything else yet. Unfortunetly it isn´t cheep. I asked them for cost of a size 332mm x 340mm and for a plate its $96 and for the Zebra Skin is $38. anyone used the zebra skin?


I like that it has a white side - makes for much better video camera exposure.

Andy Cohen
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:54 pm

GoffyOne wrote:Perhaps an alternative could be the Zebra plate from printinz. I use it on my smaler 3d printers and it works good on PLA, haven´t used it on anything else yet. Unfortunetly it isn´t cheep. I asked them for cost of a size 332mm x 340mm and for a plate its $96 and for the Zebra Skin is $38. anyone used the zebra skin?

As I posted elsewhere, we are currently testing the ZebraPlate on the CloneR1. So far is it working quite well, but you do have to work carefully to get the object off. Thanks to it's bendability you can get under enough to work it. If it lasts a long time I think it would be worth the cost given how dangerous glass plates can be. We'll see.

Zettlinger
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:48 am
Location: Roosendaal, Netherlands

Re: Buildtak

Postby Zettlinger » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:45 pm

One tip: if a piece seems stuck take it out of the printer. i cracked a glass plate a bit (still usable) and bend the clips in the back.

The clips in the back seem to be screwed in before leveled so i do not think i can easily remove and replace them

Hescockrl
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:43 am

Re: Buildtak

Postby Hescockrl » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:03 pm

Wow, such strong feelings here about buildtak. I've been using buildtak on my two printers (Prusa V2 and i3) which I built myself for well over a year. I will admit that I had quite a few issues with breaking glass plates until I upgraded both of them to aluminum beds. I fully intend on getting a large aluminum plate to fit onto the bed of the N2+ once I break the plate which I am pretty sure will happen. Luckily I have access to a high end CNC mill where I can get it cut perfectly flat.

Buildtak has its issues yes, but for some people in some situations it is the best thing ever. I regularly use a sheet for two weeks or more of continuous printing with no cleaning required unless I go from PLA to ABS and vice versa. Once you find the right settings the stuff works great nearly every single time. One of the biggest things is figuring out what temperature will allow release without pulling the buildtak off the bed creating bubbles. It is different for PLA and ABS at least in my experience where I keep PLA at 50 and drop ABS between 40 and 60. Allowing it to cool completely before removing the print just causes major problems for me. The biggest reason I ever replace the sheet is when I have an order for parts that must be absolutely flat. In that case though I usually charge my customer an extra $10 per batch to cover the cost of the sheet.

Once you do find settings that work well for you it is important to print in different areas of the bed to keep the wear even however I find that I can print in the same spot over and over again if it is the same print and material.

Removing Prints:

My new best friend is the buildtak branded spatula BT30185 which is $20 on Amazon right now. This thing is sturdy as hell, has very nicely chamfered edges which are sharp enough to get under pretty much any print but not sharp enough to damage the sheet. If I squished the first layer down way to far on a fresh sheet I will use a razor to get just under the edge then go in with the spatula. I used to use the Toybuilderlabs spatulas, but the wood handles are complete crap and I would tear through the side with the tang of the blade long before I bent the blades. They are good for smaller prints though.

Now I do a lot of business with my printers, which means I have a constant cash flow and I consider this a consumable that I am willing to spend money on. It won't be the best thing for everyone, especially if you are just a hobbyist and are not making money but spending it just to keep you in the hobby. I refused to buy into anything like this before I started making money off of it but now I consider the time not spent prepping the beds well worth it.

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rlballard
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby rlballard » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:11 pm

Sooo if you can't get hairspray and want an alternative here is an easy to make substitute:

1/2 cup hot water
2 teaspoons sugar (white granulated)
1 teaspoon sea salt
1 tablespoon 91% Isopropyl Alcohol (CVS brand is fine)

Dissolve the sugar and salt in the hot water completely, let it cool to room temperature then add the alcohol. Put it in a little spray bottle, you can find at CVS while you are there, and there you have a natural extra hold hairspray. Always shake well before using, just some thoughts, try it and see if it works for you....

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Thomarann
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:50 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Buildtak

Postby Thomarann » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:54 am

So far no issues with removal - I ordered the BuildTak spatula but so far I just remove stuff as soon as its done with no problems.

The one time to far I left it print overnight so was stuck as the bed was cool, I just set the bed temp to 50* C and by the time it hit 40* C the print just popped off easy-peasy.

I ordered a spare glass plate in case I break it but I'm hoping I won't need it.

Marc
Marc. N2 Dual

DarrenN2
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 12:04 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Buildtak

Postby DarrenN2 » Mon May 16, 2016 11:07 am

Thomarann wrote:So far no issues with removal - I ordered the BuildTak spatula but so far I just remove stuff as soon as its done with no problems.

The one time to far I left it print overnight so was stuck as the bed was cool, I just set the bed temp to 50* C and by the time it hit 40* C the print just popped off easy-peasy.

I ordered a spare glass plate in case I break it but I'm hoping I won't need it.

Marc


I have been having on and off issues with the BuildTak. I have some prints that pop off with just a little bit of applied force and then I will have a subsequent print that will really stick.

My solution for the prints that really stick has been to heat the bed to 90C and then pry off with the spatula and force. Unfortunately this can damage the print (if you need a flat surface).

I've also tried printing with a layer of glue on the BuildTak but this has also given mixed results.

I think I may try flipping the plate over and printing on the glass plate using glue.

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Thomarann
Posts: 66
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Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Buildtak

Postby Thomarann » Thu May 19, 2016 1:40 am

Now I just heat the bed to 45*C for PLA and laydown the first layer at 213*C and all the others at 215*c and it all works like a charm.

Marc
Marc. N2 Dual

Charles
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Charles » Thu May 19, 2016 6:04 am

Is there a secret setting to change the temperature after the first layer? or are you doing this temp change in the gocde?

Thomarann wrote:Now I just heat the bed to 45*C for PLA and laydown the first layer at 213*C and all the others at 215*c and it all works like a charm.

Marc


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