Buildtak

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
Andy Cohen
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:20 pm

Why we recommend NOT using Buildtak; it will not always release. Some examples:
1. If you cancel a build during the first layer the single layer extrusions may have to be chipped off with a tool which in turn scratches or damages the Buildtak.
2. It may not release at all! I had that happen last night with a 20mm x 20mm x10 mm cal cube printed with 100% infill. I'd been forgetting to spray on the AQ and was printing cube after cube on to the Buildtak attempting to find the optimal ext Mult settings for non R3D filament. Getting it off slashed the Buildtak. PITA!

If this happens to you BE CAREFUL. Your plate is worth more then the crapo Buildtak! Pull the Buildtak before you break the plate.

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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Julia Truchsess » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:32 am

Never had a release problem with Buildtak and glue stick. Maybe the glues stick helps act as a release agent. The joy of 3D printing, everyone has different results :) Find what works for you. The scraper supplied with the N2 is a bit stiff, however, and I can see how it might inflict damage. I use the scrapers that ship with the Up - they're very sharp and good-quality steel, but a lot more flexible than the one I received with my N2.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:48 am

Julia Truchsess wrote:Never had a release problem with Buildtak and glue stick. Maybe the glues stick helps act as a release agent. The joy of 3D printing, everyone has different results :) Find what works for you. The scraper supplied with the N2 is a bit stiff, however, and I can see how it might inflict damage. I use the scrapers that ship with the Up - they're very sharp and good-quality steel, but a lot more flexible than the one I received with my N2.

In many cases the term YMMV applies in 3D Printing and for sure if you do not print as much as i do or if you consistently spray or apply something over the buildtak, then yeah it may likely release fine for you. But in general what I see with BuildTak is that in time the material starts to wear and become more porous. Each time you remove an object it is probably taking some tiny amount of the material with it. As such the plastic seeps deeper and deeper into it and unlike blue painters tape the overall glue holding down the 12x12 piece as well as the durability of the Buildtak material will make it VERY hard to get the object to release. Additionally, this wear follows the shape of the objects you print which means in time the material becomes uneven and quite unpredictable. All it will take is one time with a ruined 15+ hour print or a broken plate and you will be convinced. Luckily my lesson was first learned on a 6"x6" Metal Simple. But I never expected the relatively tiny surface area of a 20mmx20mm cube to stick to the degree it did on the N2 plate. I can see a much larger object with a larger surface contact could be impossible to remove without breaking the plate. The cost as well as complexity for replacement puts BuildTak in my rejection pile. YMMV, but my recommendation to those new to 3D Printing is do NOT depend on Buildtak. Flip it over and use Purple glue stick or AQ or PVA or even a PEI sheet. Having it release is just as important as having it stick.

synthius
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Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:09 pm

Buildtak works great! I have printed with Blue Painters tape and Glass with purple glue-stick in the past but have since stuck with the buildtak ever since it came with my Raise3D. Yes, I found that if your first layer is smooshed to far into the buildtak then you will have a bad time. As long as you raise your nozzle height where it sticks yet releases easy, then your set. I have switched to buildtak on my other 3d printers and very happy with it. I have one sheet that has lasted at least 30 prints and counting. No more mess with glue sticks or tape. I love it!

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:52 pm

synthius wrote:Buildtak works great! I have printed with Blue Painters tape and Glass with purple glue-stick in the past but have since stuck with the buildtak ever since it came with my Raise3D. Yes, I found that if your first layer is smooshed to far into the buildtak then you will have a bad time. As long as you raise your nozzle height where it sticks yet releases easy, then your set. I have switched to buildtak on my other 3d printers and very happy with it. I have one sheet that has lasted at least 30 prints and counting. No more mess with glue sticks or tape. I love it!

30 prints? That's like 1 week! In statistics you will find a simple rule that result reliability is directly coupled to sample size.

synthius
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Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:44 pm

30 may sound small but that's 30 round trips to the sink that I did not have to make to wash the glass plate of glue. 30 times that I did not have to wait for the print to pop off the glass plate while it was packed in my freezer. Many sheets of paper towel that have been saved. You will find that all these things add up very quickly in the world of 3D Printing.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:08 pm

synthius wrote:30 may sound small but that's 30 round trips to the sink that I did not have to make to wash the glass plate of glue. 30 times that I did not have to wait for the print to pop off the glass plate while it was packed in my freezer. Many sheets of paper towel that have been saved. You will find that all these things add up very quickly in the world of 3D Printing.

Wow... I only take my plates to the sink after months of printing and the object requires a perfect glassy finish. I never have ever had the kind of mess you are describing with any method(except for ABS/acetone slurry which is REALLY bad). I also always have multiple plates. So the ten minutes in the freezer which btw makes for zero force that could allow for easy removal of very thin delicate parts does not impact work flow at all.
I note you never bothered to try and learn how to use Aquanet unscented super extra hold. There's a good reason why it is used so much by so many. The only valid reason to not use it is you can't get it.
Buildtak is great for those who do not know better. Keep printing. In time you will know better too.

synthius
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Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:44 pm

Ahh but I have used Aquanet and found it to be inferior to purple gluestick. None of that matters anymore since I've switched to Buildtak. If you aren't inclined to take a few minutes to set your bed height to make Buildtak work then your loss. now what to do with all this extra time? :lol:

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:49 pm

synthius wrote:
Julia Truchsess wrote:I thought jetguy was the king of condescension, patronization, pontification, belittlement, and self-aggrandizement here, but you're sure starting to give him a run for his money, Andy.


Well said, Julia. Well said. Some of these guys really crack me up but we all know why they do it. It's so much easier to build yourself up by tearing others down.

Being compared to Jetguy in any way whatsoever is a compliment.
Being referred to as "king of condescension, patronization, pontification, belittlement, and self-aggrandizement"... simply because I state that synthius is speaking from lack of experience with AQ is uncalled for. I expected a bit more from you Julia. It smells like you want to start a flame fest here. Of what value would that be? I note that Julia never mentions use of Aquanet only glue stick.
My motivation is to simply make sure that those new to 3D Printing do not get set into using options from biased views. Biased by having the machine delivered with BuildTak. A product which IMO is a potential problem. 3D Printing is a process with a very wide array of variables which makes for very different approaches for the variety of geometries a 3D Printer may try to produce. It is real easy to assume because something worked great for a set of uses, that it generally will work across the board. What this means is one should TRY EVERYTHING and not blindly assume 1 way is THE way.
You will see... Buildtak will eventually bite you. To all the new users out there... Learn NOT to use BuildTak. Eventually it will not release your object right at the worst time.
and to Julia...
To show just how condescending and patronizing and blah blah blah I can really be... this will be a segment (i.e., the danger in using BuildTak) on the podcast and I will be sure to mention you and your post.

synthius
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Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:39 pm

First and foremost - you didn't "simply state that I was speaking from a lack of experience with AQ". You saw the omission of AQ from my post and proceeded to belittle me for "not bothering to use it". Which is not only a blind assumption on your part but also an absurd and incorrect correlation. I have used it in the past but Buildtak works better for me. Somehow you cannot fathom Buildtak actually working, for whatever weird reason..
Secondly - Egotistically forcing your opinion onto others else does not make you "Jetguy". Julia was in no way comparing your 3D printing acumen to that of Jetguy. Don't get too excited. She was only comparing one egomaniac to a wannabe egomanic.

synthius
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Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:04 pm

and what the hell is " I expected a bit more from you Julia." My god you people never cease to amaze me. Please be sure to mentions Julias post along with your absurd comments in your podcast. I will be listening for it.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:22 pm

synthius wrote:First and foremost - you didn't "simply state that I was speaking from a lack of experience with AQ". You saw the omission of AQ from my post and proceeded to belittle me for "not bothering to use it". Which is not only a blind assumption on your part but also an absurd and incorrect correlation. I have used it in the past but Buildtak works better for me. Somehow you cannot fathom Buildtak actually working, for whatever weird reason..
Secondly - Egotistically forcing your opinion onto others else does not make you "Jetguy". Julia was in no way comparing your 3D printing acumen to that of Jetguy. Don't get too excited. She was only comparing one egomaniac to a wannabe egomanic.


I do not see how on Earth my posts force my opinion on anyone. That's absurd. I also do not see me belittling or attacking as both you and Julia are doing, simply pointing out that you described using something that does not work as well and not using something else which does work. You just love your BuildTak and you are mad because I am stating it has problems. Each time I point out where I disagree with you, you get angry. If i am attacking anything it is BuildTak, not you. I see that you simply have not as of yet experienced what I have.
Seems to me you are hurt because someone disagrees with something you are all jazzed about. So you and Julia strike out with snarky comments. Totally unnecessary. If you love your BuildTak why bother posting at all? Unless you desire everyone else use BuildTak too? If so then THAT is ego based. I started this thread because BuildTak demonstrated to me that it will not release in some scenarios which IMO makes it a DO NOT USE. Note that I actually DID use it. Past tense, because now it is in the trash.
There are quite a few new users coming to this forum which IMO need to know that the material which came on their printer has caveats which they should know about. Why would you go out of your way to counter that unless you are a new user without the experience of the negative aspects of BuildTak yourself.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:33 pm

Let me add a few more negative things about Buildtak.
It is not too hard to tear or scratch it, especially when it is on a hot build plate. Looking on Amazon I see that a pack of three 12x12 inch sheets, note that the N2/N2+ bed plate is 13.75x13.75 (which means you have to buy it from R3D), sells for $55.82! Thats with Amazon Prime. Looking at the R3D website they sell it for $34.99. Now $34.99 is quite a bit less then what it shows on Amazon, but.... is it 3 sheets? or is it only 1? Regardless... Kinda pricey for a material which will not release reliably and likely get damaged during part removal.

If you are new to this and think the stuff that came on the printer is THE way to go then you are likely to think that $34.99 (+shipping) is OK. I'm writing this to make it known that it is not. A can of Aquanet unscented super extra hold costs $2-$3 at CVS or Walgreens. One can lasts a good 3-6 months of constant printing(depending on objects). Perhaps a detailed post about how to use this stuff is warranted.

LonV
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Re: Buildtak

Postby LonV » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:24 am

FWIW, if you've spent any amount of time reading Julia's posts you'll realize that she's not one to start a flame war. She's just calling you out on the tone of your post.

(and I think Buildtak sucks)

Andy Cohen
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Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:05 am

Julia Truchsess wrote:I couldn't care less what anyone uses for a build surface, and I'm not married to Buildtak. The guy asked a simple question and I told him it was working ok for me. Another guy said it worked for him. Andy said he had release problems, which is good info to have, thanks for that.

What's not so good is the seeming incapability of some people to post anything without trumpeting their own presumed superiority and making denigrating, browbeating innuendo about the experience and abilities of other members, who they know absolutely nothing about. "If you're new to this", "If you print as much as I do", "Welcome to 3d printing" (this one to a guy with 6 printers and 4 years' experience), "When you get more experience", "What we pro users do", ad nauseum. It's unnecessary and uncalled for. Sharing experiences and advice, good and bad, is what we're here for. Lectures, not so much. You can be helpful to others without talking down to them.

I went back and reread. I did not think I was as you described then and i still don't. I think it is what you read into it.
BuildTak release is a function of the number of prints made on it. I think I stated it as that. Success with AQ is a function of how much you tried to use it. "30 round trips to the sink"?

synthius
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Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:28 pm

Andy Cohen wrote:
Julia Truchsess wrote:I couldn't care less what anyone uses for a build surface, and I'm not married to Buildtak. The guy asked a simple question and I told him it was working ok for me. Another guy said it worked for him. Andy said he had release problems, which is good info to have, thanks for that.

What's not so good is the seeming incapability of some people to post anything without trumpeting their own presumed superiority and making denigrating, browbeating innuendo about the experience and abilities of other members, who they know absolutely nothing about. "If you're new to this", "If you print as much as I do", "Welcome to 3d printing" (this one to a guy with 6 printers and 4 years' experience), "When you get more experience", "What we pro users do", ad nauseum. It's unnecessary and uncalled for. Sharing experiences and advice, good and bad, is what we're here for. Lectures, not so much. You can be helpful to others without talking down to them.

I went back and reread. I did not think I was as you described then and i still don't. I think it is what you read into it.
BuildTak release is a function of the number of prints made on it. I think I stated it as that. Success with AQ is a function of how much you tried to use it. "30 round trips to the sink"?



I've used AQ in the past and it is a viable solution if you choose that route. I happen to enjoy the benefits of Buildtak which saves me time and effort when prepping my print. You were unable to find success with Buildtak and find my success to be incriminating on your self-righteous superiority. Use whatever floats your boat. This post is revolving around your tone and attitude towards forum users in general. If you don't like what we are saying then simply tone back the "holier than thou" demeanor. New users don't need to be subjected to your pretentious behavior and it only adds a negative experience to those wishing to learn and enjoy 3D printing. We already have enough of that with Jetguy.

Andy Cohen
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:49 pm

synthius wrote:
Andy Cohen wrote:
Julia Truchsess wrote:I couldn't care less what anyone uses for a build surface, and I'm not married to Buildtak. The guy asked a simple question and I told him it was working ok for me. Another guy said it worked for him. Andy said he had release problems, which is good info to have, thanks for that.

What's not so good is the seeming incapability of some people to post anything without trumpeting their own presumed superiority and making denigrating, browbeating innuendo about the experience and abilities of other members, who they know absolutely nothing about. "If you're new to this", "If you print as much as I do", "Welcome to 3d printing" (this one to a guy with 6 printers and 4 years' experience), "When you get more experience", "What we pro users do", ad nauseum. It's unnecessary and uncalled for. Sharing experiences and advice, good and bad, is what we're here for. Lectures, not so much. You can be helpful to others without talking down to them.

I went back and reread. I did not think I was as you described then and i still don't. I think it is what you read into it.
BuildTak release is a function of the number of prints made on it. I think I stated it as that. Success with AQ is a function of how much you tried to use it. "30 round trips to the sink"?



I've used AQ in the past and it is a viable solution if you choose that route. I happen to enjoy the benefits of Buildtak which saves me time and effort when prepping my print. You were unable to find success with Buildtak and find my success to be incriminating on your self-righteous superiority. Use whatever floats your boat. This post is revolving around your tone and attitude towards forum users in general. If you don't like what we are saying then simply tone back the "holier than thou" demeanor. New users don't need to be subjected to your pretentious behavior and it only adds a negative experience to those wishing to learn and enjoy 3D printing. We already have enough of that with Jetguy.

OK... so your posts were not actually about what this thread was about. Instead you do not like my tone and you also do not like Jetguy's tone. You saw my post and decided to pick an argument. This was what I had already surmised which was why I wrote what I did. I do not give a hoot what you feel towards my "demeanor". I DO give a hoot about supporting new 3D Printing users and making sure they get good information. Which is NOT what I think you were doing. If you do not like my "demeanor" then I suggest you NOT read my posts. This way you won't feel whatever it is that my posts seem to make you feel.
When I, my partners and my staff explore 3D Printing solutions we do it systematically. We try every approach, with all the different possible contexts that we know of or may learn about. It is not a hobby to me. I've invested more then just money and time. My opinions are based on not just 30 prints nor are they based on 1 year of using 1 approach. You state that AQ did not work for you. Based on what I and many others know who do use it regularly there is a specific way to use it. Every time I have worked with someone who has not seen AQ as optimal I have found it was due to lack of experience and/or simply using it incorrectly. Based on your written comments this is what I have to conclude.

Also if you think I will let you leave a last insulting word on this thread... fagetaboutit.

synthius
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Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby synthius » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:02 pm

I've used the solutions you've described and they all have worked. Never did I say they did not work for me. I found Buildtak to work just as good/better without the hassle. Why is that so hard for you to understand?? I was simply stating these facts and you got all worked up and started spouting off about how you can print 30 prints in a week. I would have your staff re-evaluate their testing techniques and try again.

Night Shift
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Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Buildtak

Postby Night Shift » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:42 pm

Hello all!

I just had to make an account and pop in on this thread and give my opinion seeing as though we have one that is out of control!

So what do we have here? Post #7 by Andy Cohen, the problematic phrase used and taken as an offence is as follows: "Buildtak is great for those who do not know better. Keep printing. In time you will know better too." Later threatening someone by calling them out on a podcast! Andy "Mark" Cohen, inside joke for a few of you, it may be a large pill to swallow but pride does not mean anything on a forum. Seeing a username will not tell you a thing about their experiences with a preferred method in printing.

Next is this jewel: "note that the N2/N2+ bed plate is 13.75x13.75 (which means you have to buy it from R3D), sells for $55.82! Thats with Amazon Prime. Looking at the R3D website they sell it for $34.99. Now $34.99". But did you know that the printable area on the N2+ is only 12x12 inches! The measurement starts from the end stops in the front left too, so if you did want to circumvent Raise prices you can. It sounds like you are leaving out information to justify some sort of argument.

I don't have any clue as to what this AQ stuff is or why anyone would use it but I use 5 or 6 build plate adhesive methods in printing. In order of preference: Glass and Purple Glue, Perforated plate with ABS juce, BuildTak, Glass with ABS juce, Perforated plate dry. I currently use the following machines: Zortrax M200, Up Plus pro, Afinia H479/480, Up Mini, Raise N1, Raise N2/+, Afinia H800, Giant (600x600x800mm build area). you could say I have access to a lot of toys and know how to run them all and know what works best on each machine.

Mark please come join us back in the land of sensible discussion and debate. It is nice over here we have cotton candy, popcorn, and beer! (see what I did there?)

-NS

Zettlinger
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:48 am
Location: Roosendaal, Netherlands

Re: Buildtak

Postby Zettlinger » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:32 pm

Sadly Jetguy seems to have left the forum and delete all the advice he posted.

Sad to see ppl's emotions running so high. Say what you want of Jetguy he was schooling us but his posts were valuable unlike some people that just want to rant and point fingers at others in a p0dCast

Please people stay civil, respect others opinions but dont berate them or keep repeating the same over and over as if its the one true law
If people will take your advice fine, if they ignore it it should also be fine, they were informed.

To Jetguy : I hope we'll see you back


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