Print Plate deforms strongly

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:04 pm

With my fairly new Pro2 i can't get a good print. At first i thought it was me or the settings in Ideamaker. I called a technician today who recommended that i level the print bed. I am shocked! When cold, the print plate already shows a strong curvature from the center upwards, if temperature is added, the curvature increases from the center to the outer edge by up to 2 mm. At 3 mm, the print plate is too thin and not free of distortion, in my opinion a faulty construction. I am very disappointed because i can expect more from a device in this price range. To make matters worse, in order to solve the problem, i would have to make a special plate, which due to the design (magnets, etc.) would cost me a small fortune. If i rebuild the entire bed, i lose the guarantee. Does anyone have similar problems?
I'm already thinking about giving this printer back.

Raise, what do you say about this problem?

Best Regards,
Markus

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:38 pm

Hi @ll,

Since normal work with the printer is not possible and i do not want to return the printer for the time being, i will convert the print bed. More specifically, replace it with my own design. The highlight of the matter is that all conversions are carried out so that everything can be completely restored to the original condition. However, the bed height is 10 mm higher than the original. Leveling should be child's play after the conversion. If someone is interested, i will provide pictures and CAD files here. By changing the bed height, i would like to adjust the Z-Stop using software. I strongly suspect that this can be done in the developer settings, but without a password i cannot get into the settings. I could also solve this mechanically. Of course, it would be more elegant to store the new value in the firmware. I am sure that this could be done.
The printer cost me a lot of money and a lot of trouble. Not to mention the amount of time and money that the mod now costs me.

I would be very grateful to Raise if i could get help in this regard.

Best Regards,
Markus

zemlin
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby zemlin » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:33 pm

Are you sure you're not missing a decimal on your measurements?
A 2-3mm deviation from flat would be huge. .2mm is still a lot, but more understandable.

If you are seeing a rise in the center, I'm guessing it's actually slight sag of the cross rods supporting the print head. The simply supported rods of that length will sag slightly from the weight of the print head. My printer is the older N2. I have changed my bed to a 4-point adjustment without losing any height by using wave springs which provide the needed support and adjustment with just a few mm height.

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:15 pm

Hi Zemlin, unfortunately this is not a measurement error. During test printing with ABS, the plate bulged upwards so that the nozzle pulled through the layers like a plow. I was able to push the plate up and down at the front with my thumb and index finger. Then i measured. I will use high temperature resistant silicone dampers instead of springs. A friend of mine developed the parts and also manufactures them myself. The dampers are superior to any spring, which is why i gladly accept the 10 mm increase.
The fault of this machine is and remains the print bed. The print head guides are ok.

I would be very happy to get help with Z-Stop from Raise.

zemlin
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby zemlin » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:24 am

I thought you were saying the bed before printing was off by 2-3mm. What you're saying is that you're getting 2-3mm of warp in an ABS print. That is believable. ABS can be tricky material, and not all ABS filaments are created equal. I've had some that I've never been able to print with and others that work fine.

Who's ABS filament are you using? My favorite is Hatchbox. I've also had good results with eSun ABS+.

mdana
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:36 am

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby mdana » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:23 am

How are you measuring the deviation in the print bed? If you are measuring the distance between the top of the bed relative to the nozzle, the apparent bulge in the center is due to deflection in the rods due to the weight of the print head. Having a perfectly flat print bed won’t solve the problem since the print head doesn’t move in a flat plane.

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:02 pm

As I wrote, the bulge was visually visible. You can squeeze the huge gap with your thumb and forefinger. So it's not the guides. The 3 mm thick pressure plate simply warps under the influence of heat. For example, if I gently fix the two front set screws, I can no longer open them without pliers after the end of printing. The possibility of a removable print plate is basically a great solution, but it does not work with this device. I can report whether my mod is successful or not in 14 days.

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:55 am

My improvement is finished and a complete success! I completely replaced the print bed with my own design.

The aluminum plate I installed is 8 mm thick, precision milled and free of distortion.

The silicone heating mat is the original and fully glued to the aluminum plate. I got another 3 mm thick cork board, covered it with aluminum foil on the underside and partially glued it to the underside of the heating mat.

The new print bed can now be leveled at 5 points. First the middle, then at the four corner points. No springs are used, but self-cast high-temperature silicone dampers.
The surface is covered with a Buildtak film. If this becomes unusable, I'll stick Lokbuild on it.

Leveling is now a breeze. :mrgreen:

The bracket for the energy chain has been redesigned and screwed into existing drill holes. The Z-Stop has been adjusted.

The mod is designed so that the printer can be restored to its original state at any time. Apart from the Z-Stop, no further modifications are necessary (drilling holes, changing cables, etc.).

Print quality has improved dramatically, especially with regard to the first layers. The isolation of the heating bed leads to a much faster heating! Due to the better adhesion, the heating temperature, for example with PLA, can be reduced from 60 to 40 degrees.

Print with original print bed:

Image

Image

Print with new bed:

Image

New Plate:

Image

Isolation:

Image

Image

Bracket energy chain;

Image

All finished:

Image

Leveling is not to 0.2 mm. A German technician recommended a sheet of copy paper which corresponds to a material thickness of 0.08 mm. I chose 0.1 mm (for first tests) and it works perfectly!

User avatar
Pixeldesire3D
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:57 am

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Pixeldesire3D » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:41 pm

wow, nice results. where did you get the milled plate?

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:54 pm

I ordered the plate from a dealer (Germany) near me who specializes in 3D printing and gave me exactly what I wanted. ;)

https://landwehr3d.de/

Drobertson
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Drobertson » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:24 pm

Hi Markus,

I've discovered the exact same bed flatness issue you initially described on the printer at my office. Prior to discovering this post, I was looking into also replacing the thin Raise3D bed with a 9mm thick aluminum tooling plate. It's encouraging to hear that you've had great success with this modification.

Questions for you. Approximately how long does it take to heat up the build plate using the thicker, 8mm aluminum plate, and what temperature are you heating the plate to? I was initially concerned that the heater might not have enough power to "quickly" heat up the tooling plate, however one of your comments above implies that the heating pad outputs enough heat when mounted directly to the plate (vs the multi layer plate design on the stock Pro2 printer).

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:44 am

Hi Drobertson,
welcome to the Forum!
I am very sorry that you had the same negative experiences as me.

As you have already read, I was able to solve my problem very well. The heating behavior of the 8 mm thick, finely milled aluminum plate is very easy to distinguish from the original heating time. On the contrary, the additional attachment of the cork plate covered with aluminum foil has a positive effect. After my last posting, I converted the plate again from 4-point leveling to 3-point leveling and i am now extremely satisfied with it! Once the plate is level, this setting will last for many weeks. I therefore advise everyone who wants to do this conversion to use silicone dampers instead of springs.

2K silicone with 50 Shore hardness have proven to be optimal. If someone is interested, I can provide the mold as an STL.

The print area is now covered with LokBuild instead of Buildtak. This constellation allows prints with lower heating temperatures and optimal adhesion. I generally measure the nozzle spacing in the middle of the buildplate. The distance varies between 0.05 and 0.09 mm depending on the filament and the print object.

A few examples of heating bed temperatures:
PLA ==> The first 5 layers with 60 ° C, then 40 - 50 ° C.
PET-G ==> The first 5 layers with 60 ° C, then 50 - 55 ° C
PC ==> 55 - 60 ° C

I wish you good luck. If you have any further questions or need help - get in touch.

IMG_20200811_133807.jpg

IMG_20200811_133754.jpg

loeschau1
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:46 am

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby loeschau1 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:05 pm

Hi Markus,

Since I also come from Germany, would I be interested in a complete conversion kit.
Can you please support me?

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:22 pm

loeschau1 wrote:Hi Markus,

Since I also come from Germany, would I be interested in a complete conversion kit.
Can you please support me?


Of course @loeschau1, you're welcome!

jdaved402
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby jdaved402 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:55 pm

Markus,

Have you ever printed on a glass surface before? If so, how does the surface finish using this aluminum compare to a glass finish? And also, using glass, I can get away with not using glue on pla. Do you use anything medium to adhere pla to the aluminum or just heat the bed?

Slightly off topic, but I notice you have some sort of filter underneath the bed plate? You're filtering air from the inside of the container to the outside? Or does the filter circulate internal air only?

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:17 pm

@ jdaved402,
I have not yet printed on glass because I can handle the Lokbuild permanent printing film very well.
If by filter you mean that green part - yes.

Please see this post: https://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20719

Skyline41rus
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:09 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Skyline41rus » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:43 am

Marcus, hello. I also ran into the problem of a crooked table. Raise doesn't want to fix this. I live in Russia. Tell me if you could help me get this whole conversion kit. And how much would it all cost? Together with shipping to my country.

Markus64
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:57 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Markus64 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:26 pm

Skyline41rus wrote:Marcus, hello. I also ran into the problem of a crooked table. Raise doesn't want to fix this. I live in Russia. Tell me if you could help me get this whole conversion kit. And how much would it all cost? Together with shipping to my country.


@ Skyline41rus and @all other interested parties,
I can't get you complete conversion kits myself. First of all, I don't have the time and secondly, it would be too expensive. But I can help you to carry out the conversion as well and as cheaply as possible. A few parts are available on ebay and Amazon, parts such as the finely milled aluminum plate and the special silicone dampers are sold by a dealer (I trust) worldwide. The costs are quite manageable, shipping abroad costs more, especially when customs duties are due, than shipping domestically. Parts like the heater can be reused. I will sit down on the coming evenings and publish pictures and descriptions here in the thread, as well as a dimensional drawing of the 8 mm thick, finely milled and warp-free aluminum plate. The list of parts that you can get in your home country, as well as the list of all parts that "my" dealer can deliver. Please note that the aluminum plate, damper and a few other little things are custom-made. The conversion itself is done quickly. The plate can be leveled in a flash and lasts for weeks, if not months. More information in my next post.

Skyline41rus
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:09 pm

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby Skyline41rus » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:11 am

Thank you Marcus. You are a tough guy. Keep writing your posts and open people's eyes to this raw printer

KaneTW
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:57 am

Re: Print Plate deforms strongly

Postby KaneTW » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 pm

I assume this build plate is no longer removable?


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