Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

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JohnSays
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Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:32 pm

I have Berd-Air pumps running on 2 N2s. They use the same firmware and have been running just fine until today. One of my N2s no longer pumps air. I checked the voltage from the pins at the motion controller board and I get 0 vdc at 100% on. What would cause the voltage at HE2 to drop to 0?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:06 am

Hi John,

Is it only the 12V from HE2 that is missing?

Is the LED associated with the HE2 output working normally?

Do you have 12V on any of the other ‘12V Outputs’?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if the 12V regulator has failed. We do not have the exact schematics for the Raise3D version of the Rumba PCB but Jetguy posted the nearest equivalent a while back. Looking at that schematic (attached) the 12V regulator seems only to supply the feeds for the fans and 12V headers.

Are you running the Berdair compressor directly from the HE2 output or do you have any circuitry in between that can suppress the back EMF from the motor?

As a minimum you should have protection diode to prevent the Back EMF from over stressing the components on the motion controller PCB.

Ari
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RRD-RUMBA_SCHEMATICS_12V Reg.png

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:27 am

Ari, Thank you for responding. The LED does not come on when I command the fan to run via HE2. I don't know of any other 12v outputs not working. That is, my extruder fan and motion board fans are running. I don't have a map of the board to know what pin outs are also regulated by the same 12v regulator. Do you know?

I am running the motor directly, but will stop now on my other machine until this is sorted out. No one else running the Berd-Air mentioned using anything to handle the back EMF. What would I use -- keeping in mind I am not fully electronics savvy.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:58 pm

John

*** EDITED to correct invalid reference to 12V ********

I note that you state the LED associated with HE2 is not illuminating when you command the output to turn ON. This is not related to the 24V rail. In my current thinking there could be 3 possible reasons for the LED not illuminating;

a) Something has changed in the configuration that is preventing the HE2 output command from actually being sent, (i.e. software/firmware related). Are you sure you have not made changes recently that may have caused this?

b) The MOSFET output drive transistor has failed in such a way that it is pulling the voltage driving the HE2 LED down to 0V. This mode of failure is unlikely but it is possible.

c) The output from HE2 from the processor is not switching. However, the fact that everything else appears to function makes this type of failure is very unlikely.

From the description you gave I think that it is possible the 24V rail is ok. However just to be sure can you perform the following tests with a multimeter?

1. Remove the BerdAir pump.

2. With the power to the N2 OFF measure the resistance of the component shown in the attached photo of the motion controller PCB. The measured value should be 0 Ohm. (This component might act like a fuse if the HE2 positive pin output current is too high). (ignore the text in red font in the photo).

3. With the power ON measure the voltage between the ‘+’ of the HE2 output and the ‘-‘ pin (0V) of one of the outputs labelled 12V. If you measure 24V then the power rail is OK.


Attached is a photo of the BerdAir pump with a protection diode fitted. Whether or not the lack of diode is a contributing factor to the problem that you have it is good practice to add it. Solder the diode directly across the BerdAir motor terminals. It is important that the white band at one end of the diode is towards the positive terminal.

I recommend using the following diode or similar. Farnell order code 2675015, 1N4004 - Standard Recovery Diode, 400 V, 1 A

Whilst you are fitting a diode I also recommend you add a 0.1 µF capacitor in parallel with the diode as this will help suppress electrical interference from the motor and stop it getting onto the 24V supply of the N2. The capacitor can be fitted either way round, it has no polarity.
Farnell order code 1215469, DC Film Capacitor, 0.1 µF, 100 V, PET (Polyester), ± 10%

I am in the UK so we have a little time difference between correspondence.

Ari
Attachments
Test points.jpg
pump_diode.jpg
Last edited by Ari on Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:00 am

Ari, Thank you for the full instructions. You know, you keep talking about 12V and I keep thinking, "But don't I have a 24v pump motor?" I checked, and yes I do. Both pump motors are 24v. I got those based on connecting to the HE2 pins. JetGuy is the one who said it was okay to do this -- actually, he didn't;'t say it was okay, he said this is what you do. What am I missing here about running a 24v pump motor on a 12v rail?

I'll get to the tests in your instructions Monday during the day.

Interesting -- I just now found this warning on the Berd Air website. I had never seen this there before:

"** WARNING ** connecting this pump directly to your FAN output on your motor controller is not recommend. Damage to the FAN MOSFET could occur. I highly recommend the use of the eSwitch kit or similar to act as a buffer to prevent damage to your printer control board."

eSwitch: http://www.themakerhive.com/shop/viewitem.php?productid=41

So damage may have happened to the mosfet. I'm hoping this is something I can fix with a new mofset.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:04 am

John,

I have just checked my own N2 Controller Board and confirmed that the positive pin of the HE2 output is tied to +24V and not 12V. Sorry this was my mistake. I have edited my previous post to reference 24V where appropriate to avoid misleading others reading the thread.

The checks I have asked you to do are still valid but instead of looking for 12V you should see 24V if all is well.

Depending on the outcome of these checks we might need to look a little deeper before deciding to change the MOSFET but it is certainly possible to replace the MOSFET if needed.

The use of the eswitch although not strickly necessary in our case, could be a good idea even if it is just to protect the (more expensive) motion controller board against the unexpected.
Last edited by Ari on Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:17 am

I measured the resistor at 0 ohms and the 24v rail was at 24v. So both appear to be good.

I now have another problem: The X motion of the gantry is in a state of constant skip when I try to home it -- so sounds like a jack hammer. If I press the right arrow on the LCD it will go right a little while skipping. When I press it again, it goes left while skipping. So that should tell me something but I don't know what. Note that the gantry moves freely by hand.

I've already checked for loose wiring and I checked the voltage. I then unplugged the X wiring at the driver and plugged it into the Y driver. Now using the Y arrows causes the same problem. So, this eliminates the motion board as the culprit. It is either the wiring to the motor or the motor itself. I may not have time to get back to this for a few days. Too many meetings over the next few days.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 pm

John

Having seen your extensive N2 grades I suspect you are more than capable of locating the X axis faults and I not wish to appear to teach you to suck eggs but for what it’s worth I’ll throw my thoughts in the pot. They might or might not be useful.

Treating the problems described in the posts above as two separate faults.

X motion of the gantry
With reference to your statement “If I press the right arrow on the LCD it will go right a little while skipping. When I press it again, it goes left while skipping”. I think this might indicate that at least one of the stepper poles has not received a drive pulse. To rotate smoothly the stepper motor must receive the drive pulses in a sequential order. If pulses are missing, the stepper will skip and might even go in the opposite direction depending where the armature happens to be at the time the next pulse arrives.

On the basis that steppers motors are normally fairly robust and do not very often go wrong I would have another look at the X-axis stepper motor wiring loom. Although I am not sure why it should be damaged as it is not subject to continuous movement, unlike the extruder motor cable for example.

1. Check carefully the connections between each of the male pins and crimps and the crimp to wire termination of both ends of the wring loom. Ensuring that neither have worked loose.

2. With the stepper motor disconnected, perform a continuity check ‘end to end’ of each wire core. You may need to do this whilst attempting to move the extruder head in case the fault is intermittent.

3. You should also check that there is no electrical connection between the individual wires of stepper motor loom or between the individual wires and ground, in case there is not a complete break but damaged insulation causing a short.

4. Although it does not quite fit with the fault description I guess to be thorough you ought check the mechanical coupling between the motor and the X axis drive assembly.

If nothing unusual is found, then it will be a further process of elimination by swopping each X axis component with the Y axis parts (or spares if you have them).

Berd-Air - no voltage to HE2 pin

To check the MOSFET can you make the following measurements. With reference to the attached photo and ensuring that the power is OFF and the Berd Air pump is disconnected.

1. Shown in Green font. Measure the resistance between the HE2 CPU output and 0V. The resistance should be close to 100K Ohms.

2. Shown in Yellow font. Measure the resistance between the source and drain of the MOSFET. The resistance should be greater than 2.5M Ohms (or infinity depending which way around the Ohmmeter probes are applied).

Let us know how you get on when you have time to get back to it.

Ari
Attachments
Test points 2.jpg

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:32 am

Thanks again Ari. Really nice instructions.

Regarding the 24v pin: I made the two measurements and they are 99.8K Ohms and about 14.5M Ohms. So both good.

I solved my X axis problem. Don't ask how! I unplugged the connection at the Y motor and plugged that into the X motor and the X axis worked. So I knew it was not the motor. So, I thought, it must be a bad cable because I had plugged and unplugged it and replugged it and that changed nothing. On a whim, I plugged the correct cables where they are supposed to be and retested. Again. It all worked. Go figure. Smooth as silk. I noticed one small detail. When I plugged the X axis motor back in, I noticed that it went one "click" more than I had felt it go before. So my bet is that it was not fully plugged in and was just waiting for a little movement to disconnect at least one pin.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:45 pm

It appears I have been chasing a red herring and involving you in my machinations. I do apologize. I just loaded the same firmware I have been running in my N2 (that does not work) into my N2 that was working. Now it does not work. That is, the 24v pin does not get power. So, it must be that I have made some mistake with the firmware. I truly thought both machines were running on the exact same version and that they were loaded from the exact same file. Apparently not. I say apparently because I have not compiled a working version yet. Not sure what went wrong. I have HE2 assigned to fan 6 and that should be all I need to do. Anyway, I'm sure I'll work this out.

Later this morning...

Okay, I know what I did. I changed the pin assignments in the wrong pin file with the last update to fix another problem. I changed them in the pins_RAMBO.h file instead of the pins_RUMBA.h file and then installed that firmware in the second machine. I installed another version -- a working version, again, by mistake -- into the other machine. I assume I picked the wrong firmware from the USB stick when installing it.

The "new" firmware is working. Two good things to come out of this are: (1) I will be installing the diode and capacitor votage regulator protections, and (2) I found out that setting a fan percent below 25 does not even turn the motor. Running it up to 100% and then setting it immediately to 20% does not result in a turning motor either. At 25%, the amount of air coming from the pump is not even close to 25% of its capacity. So, very good to know as I have used 20% on the first layer of some filament.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:21 am

Hi John,

Good to know you have resolved the issue.

Based on the tests you carried out on the MOSFET I had reached the conclusion that the HE2 pin of the CPU was not being driven by the firmware. Your explanation supports this, so all is good hardware wise. The MOSFETs used on the controller PCB are pretty robust devices but it is nonetheless good practice to fit the diode and capacitor to your pump.

I am about to fit a BerdAir to my N2 (only the day job getting in the way). My pump is a 12V version hence my initial hang up with 12V during the initial posts. This has therefore been a useful exercise for me. Plus, I might be asking for you advice with the firmware when I get that far.

Regards

Ari

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:43 pm

I will be glad to help in any way I can. What do you plan to attach the 12v pump to?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:08 am

I have a separate 12V PSU to supply the Pump. I will tie the 0V rail of the N2 to the 0V rail of the separate PSU and use the HE2 MOSFET to control the pump by switching the 0V line.

I plan to set it up with minimal changes to the N2 to begin with, as I not convinced about the long term durability of the air pump. In my opinion they seem cheaply made and might wear out rather quickly with continuous use (e.g. motor brushes, lack of proper bearings etc).

I would be interested to hear feedback from anyone on this forum that has been using the BerdAir for +2years to see what their experience has been.

Ari

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:34 am

Ari, I added the capacitor and the diode as described. Now the Berd Air will only run if the power is 100%. Is this some side effect of adding the components?

How is your BerdAir system doing?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:31 am

Hi John,

Try removing only the capacitor.

The capacitor is there to reduce electrical noise from the motor, however suspect it might also be 'suppressing' the PWM signals from the controller.

If removing it works then continue without it. The diode is the most important component.

With regards to my own Berdair. I have all the parts ready but since April have had 3 jobs running where my N2 has been indispensable and dare not do anything to risk taking it out of action. Hopefully I will soon be able to experiment :D

Ari

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:35 pm

Thanks Ari.

Well it looks like i was mistaken again. The assembly is just much quieter and is running below 100. I found this out while playing with the tuning while the printer was not printing -- so it was easier to hear the motor running. Prior to adding the diode and capacitor, it was significantly louder. I suppose this is a result of adding the capacitor?
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head

Ari
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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby Ari » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:55 pm

I am surprised that you can hear an audible difference with the capacitor fitted. I might investigate the reason for this when I eventually changeover to my Berdair system.

Anyway, good to know that yours is working as it should.

Ari

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Re: Berd-Air -- no voltage to HE2 pin

Postby JohnSays » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:25 am

Ari wrote:I am surprised that you can hear an audible difference with the capacitor fitted. I might investigate the reason for this when I eventually changeover to my Berdair system.

Anyway, good to know that yours is working as it should.

Ari


See my previous post. We covered this.
- John

2 Raise3D N2 Duals, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection, Firmware 1.1.9ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette 2 Pro, Custom E3D hot end and ultra-light carriage and printer head


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