thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

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Jab136
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:00 pm

thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jab136 » Fri May 18, 2018 10:04 am

so, my printer has started throwing thermal runaway errors and forcing a re-start, even though I haven't changed any firmware or installed the sensor yet. is there an auto update feature that may have downloaded it? how can I fix this?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 18, 2018 10:37 am

Which version of firmware you are currently using?
It might be some hardware problem such as no proper temperature value feedback in time.
Please make contact with our support team.

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 12:55 pm

Jab136, my immediate concern is that you have the protector, and for reason I don't understand, you have yet to install it and still are printing. If anything, right there is a tragedy.

Worse, you blame an error on firmware, like some update caused it rather than even contemplating that the likely hood of you having a very serious safety condition failing right now, that's the just unreal part about this.

What I getting at is, I know some of you are technical, others aren't, I cannot know everyone where you are at skill wise or what you know, or don't know, but as much as I have posted about this, explained about this, either you didn't read it or didn't understand it.

Without the safety board, your printer does not catch the starting of a thermal runaway condition until you are in the "Oh poop" real moment of a full on thermal runaway. Thermal runaway is a simple concept. It happens when the controller thinks the heater is one temp (a lower temp) and so the logic says if the reported temp is lower than the set temp= turn on the heater full blast. The safety code that would check for a rise in temp in so many seconds, well that code only works when the temperature spread (reported temp VS setpoint temp) is less than 10C. So again, what happens is, you have an intermittent ribbon cable failure. It's hidden problem a LOT of people have and have no clue, because it is not detected. So fine, the ribbon cable breaks connection. The problem is, the stock non-pro series mainboard, without a thermal protector installed, keeps seeing and reading whatever the last temp reported was BEFORE the cable failure. Again, an intermittent cable failure- very hard to detect or troubleshoot by conventional means (Continuity tests while sitting there). When that happens, if the exact moment in time is when the reported temp is just below the set temp, you are inside this 10C window where there is NO SAFETY code invoked. This is because, with uninsulated heating blocks, the fans can easily cause the heater block to remain under the setpoint temp for longer periods of time and would throw false positive trips of the safety code, so that's why safety code in firmware is not the end all be all safety net. Again, when the reported temp is below setpoint= heater on, but if the cable moving and flexing during the print breaks connection, then for a time period, the reported temp just keeps staying the same last value (under setpoint temp keeping the heater on) and the actual heater block rises in temp uncontrolled. Then when the cable flexes again and makes contact, now the REAL temp is updated and the controller suddenly sees the extruder WAAAY too hot and throws the thermal runaway error- all to late because you are full blown into thermal runaway.

The WHOLE point of the add on board is to enable the mainboard to detect a cable fault BEFORE thermal runaway can happen. That's why getting it, installing it the INSTANT it arrives, not printing if you are getting errors without it, understanding the entire above scenario is so important. It's not just for you- this is for all the OTHER users out there who need a wakeup call.

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 1:02 pm

Again, look at fellow user John with multiple printers. He just discovered that one of his had a fault, he was not even aware of until he installed the thermal protector and saw how bad it really was, how much he was at risk. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8436

What is it going to take to get the message out? Someone damages a hotend? Someone has a serious overheat and smoke damage or worse? That's confirmed on at least 2 printers I know of that had "meltdowns".
At $80 a pop for a V2 hotend, not to imagine what other damage could happen in extreme cases, isn't this top of the list topics for current N series non-pro owners?

Again, my general impression is, even after all the talks, a bunch of you still are not getting the message. This is for your own good, safety of the machine and safety for you and your family or coworkers around the machine.

Jetguy
Posts: 2352
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 1:09 pm

Again, fact is, just short of saying "everyone stop printing until you install a thermal protector upgrade on your non-pro series printer", the next and current stage of warning is "everyone needs to get a thermal protector and install it---- yesterday".

Jab136
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jab136 » Fri May 18, 2018 5:50 pm

I don't have the sensor yet, and the error was happening when the hotends weren't even active. this was happening when I was pre-heating the bed.

As for software, I can double check tomorrow, but I flashed it to the previous version (not the versions released this week)

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 6:20 pm

Just so we are clear, the motion board firmware is what throws the error.
You change the LCD raisepack until you are blue in the face, the error message came from Marlin.

There are really only about 3 official firmware variants today of the Marlin.
You have the previous 1.1.1 firmware- no thermal runaway protection, but let's be honest, the current version doesn't work either. The issue with 1.1.1 is the stepper timeout which will bite you during a pause.
So, that leaves the current 1.1.16- and yes, I said there was some broken code in the safety function in it I found in source. I raised these questions and all I got was crickets chirping. So on one hand, you should run 1.1.16 official, because that in theory does have safety code, does have the stepper timeout fix. At the same time, I found in my own testing, I could make it blow hash on bench testing with various changes. There is some messed up code and literally everyone ignored me even raising the question.
Then last, you have official 1.1.16 FSR- and all in theory that does (since we don't have source to truly understand what Raise 3D did) we assumed it's 1.1.16 normal, with the filament detection code that is extremely simplistic added.

I was in your shoes, the one test you can do is flash your motion board back to 1.1.1 and do not use pause function. If that solves it, finally, we have one example of where 1.1.16 and the code I questioned can do dumb things. I still say, this can be cable related, because when i say the code is messed up, we saw the bed heater error tied to the hotend temp error in this safety code. So again, my thought is, we have an exceptional double circumstance, a situation where everything comes together and invokes this code bug- and the cause is BOTH the cable fault and the firmware bug.

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 6:24 pm

Again, you have options here for testing.
You can safely and easily, with very little effort, flash back to Marlin 1.1.1 firmware. This is safe, easy, and a known testing point. We know that firmware has an issue, but for most things, it's not the worst error in the bigger picture.
https://www.raise3d.com/pages/motion-co ... l-versions

However, if that fixes it, the next fear is that even though you were not heating the hotends, in your mind, they have nothing to do with the error, until you get that protector, watch like a hawk for signs of ribbon cable issues.

Jetguy
Posts: 2352
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 6:31 pm

Again, I have to be honest with you that I am sorry you are caught in the middle of this.

We are trapped between 2 things:
#1 a known limitation of the motherboard and a common cable failure that goes undetected.
#2 That Raise 3D, I'm sorry, but motion board firmware development since the day this printer released has been poor. We identified issues with 1.1.1, you released a flawed 1.1.2, then told everyone to revert to 1.1.1. Then we finally get 1.1.16, quickly, I point out some questionable issues, they get ignored. You'll bend over backwards for an Ideamaker update or a Raisepack to add a feature, but the very firmware running the hardware in this machine it's like pulling teeth. This is flat out ridiculous. The heart of this machine, the marlin firmware and the board it runs on are NOT getting the same level of attention and development as stuff that is nowhere near as critical. This must change.

Beyond these safety examples, why is it the community that really made better filament detection firmware? Why it is the community investigated better upgrade stepper drivers? Why is not pressure advance something that was spearheaded as a firmware update by Raise3D for better printing? The list goes on for days.

Jetguy
Posts: 2352
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: thermal runaway errors but no thermal runaway sensor

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 pm

Jab136 wrote:so, my printer has started throwing thermal runaway errors and forcing a re-start, even though I haven't changed any firmware or installed the sensor yet. is there an auto update feature that may have downloaded it? how can I fix this?


Again, just to ensure this question is really answered.
#1 there is no automatic firmware update, either Raisepack or Marlin motion control over the network. Both require specific user interaction to force an update sequence.
#2 The front panel Raisepack/Raisetouch, even if you update it, has no effect on when a thermal runaway or any temp sensing error is thrown.
#3 The most likely cause- especially given the lack of a safety board being installed, is sadly a ribbon cable fault of an intermittent nature.
#4 There is a chance, that #3 coupled with some code and issues I found in Marlin 1.1.16 could all work together and throw an error- when heating the bed. I saw failure on bend testing using modified source code, but the point was, it all pointed at some flawed issues in the actual firmware that exists in 1.1.16.

The fact is, you probably have been running 1.1.16 like the rest of us. Because there have been no other reports or questions on the safety code flaws I asked about, the discussion went dead. Again, no physical proof (field failures causing problems on real printers) everybody just blew it off. What I can say, is knowing what I saw on the bench, there is a narrow chance that the all too common ribbon cable failure could happen to anyone at anytime. Because of lack of the board's native ability to see that error real time, it takes other problems and errors before users finally call the cable bad- unless they install a thermal protector- then it won't let them print until they fix it. So again, likely, we have an edge case, where 2 known flaws, link together to give an extra rare condition of a thermal error for the bed.

Again, your symptom is, you have been printing fine for some time. One day, with no recent updates, you start getting errors. Sadly, the most likely answer is a cable failure even if your root symptom does not appear to point at that as a cause.


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