Ribbon Cable Replacement

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JohnSays
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Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Thu May 17, 2018 5:02 pm

I would like to procure some 3M HF319/14 ribbon cable. This cable is supposed to last 25,000,000 3/4" radius bends. I should think this would be ideal for our usage in the cable chain. Has anyone here got a supply of this stuff or know where to get smaller quantities?

Searching the internet I can only find it in very large quantities of 900 to 1000 feet at about USD $3000.

Zemlin suggested it: https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/3/3m/hf319-high-flex-life-cable
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

detroitus
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby detroitus » Thu May 17, 2018 5:23 pm

Every distributor I can find that carries it sells it in 100ft spools for between $200 - $300 per spool. But they all have a minimum quantity order or 10. So unless someone wants to invest the capital and go into business selling "upgrade" cables we may be out of luck.

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Thu May 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Yup. That's why I'm asking here. Maybe someone has this stuff at work or knows someone...
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Jetguy
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 1:04 pm

Sorry, was not ignoring you, just got busy with a new printer last night (no, not a Raise3D).
No, sadly, I'm searching too, but probably just reusing the exiting cable, just using the excess never before flexed part until i figure something better out.

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 18, 2018 3:01 pm

Thanks JetGuy. I ended up buy8ing the Cicoil Hi-Flex Zemlin turned me on to: https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/3/3m/hf319-high-flex-life-cable
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Jetguy
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby Jetguy » Fri May 18, 2018 3:09 pm

Very good wire, we use that for the same flexing reasons on printers with moving X axis stepper motors (Flashforge, Wanhao, Makerbot) and custom builds. The main reason I did not suggest this first, in my experience, the version of Cicoil flex we used, I'm not sure how to best terminate into the IDC style connector- although I'm sure there are solutions for that.

My honest take is that special wire is not 100% required, and the best fix is attention to details in routing the cables, ensuring extra length near the extruder to not do a sharp bend radius. The cable chain should provide the proper guide and mechanical bending limits, but it's a system, and as a "system" a big part of that is the routing at the far end of the cable- and betting 90% of all failures are happening right at the extruder end.

The same thing with the N1. I was unhappy with the original cable guide system to the extruder, made my own and included a nylon 3/8 inch water tube to help maintain the arch, and zero cable failures on that printer.

What I'm getting at is, it's really a 2 fold thing.
Yes, you can and it is better to use a better flex rated cable- if you can make it affordable and find the right combo of cable and connectors that work as a system.
However, no matter what wire is used, bad cable routing and sharp bends can make ANY cable fail and fail a lot faster.

And there lies the problem, cost, research and then telling and explaining the nuances of cable management and routing in flexing situations, bend radius limits, and other factors just not easily taught to everyone.

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 18, 2018 3:43 pm

This makes perfect sense to me JetGuy. My N2 arrived with a very sharp bend at the extruder end. In fact, the cable was folded over on itself at about 45 degrees. I have pulled the cable out enough to eliminate that sharp bend. I too am betting on this being where the intermittent fault is.

I didn't realize the Cicoil cables require a special connector. I watched their video of how to install the connector and they used a standard IDC connector but they show how to slide it into position. That is the big difference that they instruct.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 18, 2018 10:02 pm

Here's where actuality trumps theory. In theory, the break should have been near the extruder. In actuality it was about 2 1/2 feet from the extruder. I used an all metal push pin to probe the the flat cable on the TC 0 line until I got a continuity signal. If I had had to go one inch shorter I could not have fit the ribbon cable back in the channels it was following. As it is, things are a bit tighter than I would like to see. So, as soon as I get my 25' spool of Cicoil Hi-Flex, I will install it on both of my N2s.

Btw, I took the opportunity to install the filament run-out kit. This last set of mods included (1) Filament run-out sensor, (2) thermal runaway resistors, and (3) upgraded the x and y stepper drivers to the SD2224s. More changes than I would like at once. Later today I will set up a test print. The next mod is to install the Palette+ now waiting on my workbench.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Jetguy
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby Jetguy » Sat May 19, 2018 12:33 am

The million dollar question, where does that break correspond to as installed in the printer? The other end of the entrance to the cable chain at the back? Going up through the hole in the top lid? under or near a cable tie?

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 am

It is hard to know for absolute sure. The reason is that I had to keep pulling the cable through the harness as well as taking the chain apart. However, my measurements show that the break is most probably in the turn where the cable chain makes a right angle turn into the case. Of important note: The ribbon cable was also twisted up in there and had been flattened onto itself in more than one spot. Badly enough that there are lasting fold impressions on the removed cable. So, IMO, it was installed in a sloppy fashion and then with motion and tension, broke. Also, IMO, the ribbon cable needs to run straight up into that bend and not compound the problem with multiple tight bends. Thus I would run it across to the other side of the machine and then up to the pivot point. This would reduce the torsional force.

No matter how I look at that pivot I cannot see a clean way to put a ribbon cable through it without simply entering the back with no bend. In fact, having said that, the flaw here may simply be that the cable needs a few inches of straight run prior to the pivot. A 90 degree bend into a straight would keep the bending force from being transmitted to the part of the cable that has the bend = eliminate the torsional force from the bend. Further, if it is left to enter the turn as is, I wonder if the ribbon cable would be protected if it was gripped such that the lateral forces could not get to the turn and turn into torsion forces. In other words, hold the cable vice like so that it would have to do all of its movement in the cable chain.

When I get my new cable, I am going to route it as I believe it should be and cover with a thin piece of black plastic channel that I print. This should be a rather easy fix. Clamping it after the bend will require a little thought.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

detroitus
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby detroitus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:13 pm

JohnSays wrote:I didn't realize the Cicoil cables require a special connector. I watched their video of how to install the connector and they used a standard IDC connector but they show how to slide it into position. That is the big difference that they instruct.


I'm wondering if this Cicoil Hi-Flex cable ended up working for you or did the special connector issue throw a wrench into things?

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JohnSays
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Re: Ribbon Cable Replacement

Postby JohnSays » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:21 pm

I have not used it yet. I'm doing a complete rebuild of one of my N2s just now and will be using it. No special connector needed according to the makers of the cable. They have a video on how to apply an IDC female connector and it is a must watch:
https://www.cicoil.com/videos/item/how-to-install-idc-connectors-on-a-cicoil-ribbon-cable
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+


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