Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

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Jetguy
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Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:40 pm

Min temp error indicates that the mainboard is not seeing any voltage on the analog pins of the ribbon cable connector.
That is a warning to me that there is also no thermal protector installed on this N series printer or instead of the thermal protector board, the soldering 2 resistors to the mainboard mod. Either way, this is a serious warning condition.

Can you confirm you have a thermal protector board installed and also, plugged in properly at the mainboard?
Second to that, this simply indicates that 100% for sure, your thermocouple amp board at the extruder head is not connected to the mainboard via the ribbon cable. How and were that is broken is unknown, but that's what that error message means.

I say this because:
if the thermocouple itself is not connected to the screw terminals at the extruder breakout at the extruder head, that throws the thermocouple amp into error and it reports a max temp error back to the mainboard
If the ribbon cable is unplugged between the breakout and the mainboard- then no signal ever reaches the mainboard and you get a mintemp error (provided there is no installed thermal protection board at the mainboard)
If there is a thermal protection board at the mainboard, it's job in life is to tell the mainboard maxtemp error if the cable fails in any way between the thermal protector and mainboard.

So a mintemp error definitely points at something going on between the connector at the mainboard and the extruder breakout. It also sounds very bad like no thermal protector is installed to this printer- or that it's plugged in the wrong way.

pearson222
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Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby pearson222 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:24 pm

Jetguy wrote:Can you confirm you have a thermal protector board installed and also, plugged in properly at the mainboard?
Second to that, this simply indicates that 100% for sure, your thermocouple amp board at the extruder head is not connected to the mainboard via the ribbon cable. How and were that is broken is unknown, but that's what that error message means.

I verified that the thermal protector is installed and installed properly. I am getting no power to the extruder board. The extruder fans do not startup upon power on. Also there are no lights on the extruder board when powering on. I happen to have a spare extruder board that I swapped in and the issue remains. No power to the board. I have also verified that there are no loose connections at the main and extruder boards.

This is the same machine that I had posted about a month or so ago that is basically compiled of all of Raise3D's reject parts. The printer has never functioned 100% since purchasing it less that a year ago. Support will not take responsibility nor acknowledge their lack of quality control on even the most obvious of defects.

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:22 pm

Your error message is telling me you have the thermal protector plugged into the mainboard backwards.
Again, if you get a mintemp and have a thermal protector installed, and no fans are spinning at the extruder breakout, the most obvious answer is no, check and/or flip around the protection board connector at the mainboard.

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:37 pm

In this topic, there are some pictures but the main thing is, the key on the connector (the tab that sticks out on the one side of the ribbon cable connector) faces away from the nearby heated bed JST style white connector.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6580&start=20#p28328

pearson222
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Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby pearson222 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:41 pm

Jetguy wrote:If you unplug both the thermal protector and you unplug the ribbon cable so that nothing is plugged into the mainboard, wait at least 10 minutes with the printer in the off state, Then in theory, you should this time get a mintemp error upon booting. That would indicate the mainboard with no thermal protector is working. Then power off the printer again, wait 10 minutes, plug in the ribbon cable again, without thermal protector, plug in your extruder head breakout board, with a jumper wire across the thermocouple inputs. This should boot up and show room temp. If it shows mintemp or maxtemp (again, these tests with no thermal protector here in the cabling) you either have a bad ribbon cable or the extruder breakout is not working. I have to be honest, the AD597 is an industrial chip well known and used in industry and they are extremely reliable. As such, in all my time in the Raise 3D groups since the Kickstarter, I can say with confidence there has not been a single example of a failed breakout board. It simply doesn't happen.

My first 2 candidates are:
#1 thermocouple itself to the screw terminal of the breakout board. This would throw a maxtemp error
#2 a failed ribbon cable, but ONLY when a thermal protector is installed. This is because that's the job of the thermal protector, to show a maxtemp error when the cable breaks. If you don't have a thermal protector installed, the only 2 ways to get a maxtemp error report at the mainboard is that your thermocouple is broken connection at the extruder breakout screw terminals, and the AD 597 chip is sending maxtemp over the ribbon cable, or your extruder really is over maxtemp and it's sending a real signal over the ribbon cable. If the ribbon cable is failed, and you do not have a thermal protector, then we expect a mintemp error, and that may only be detected when the mainboard self discharges in the off state (the 10 minute wait) and you power on from the discharged state and since the cable is broken, the pin does not charge up to a normal within range temp voltage sent by the extruder breakout board.


You were 100% right Jetguy. The female plug receptacle came out with the ribbon cable from the main board when I was installing the thermal runaway protector. The printer fired up and made it halfway through a print before the extruder heater temp slowly began dropping from the set temp until the error - "Error: thermal runaway extruder switched off" popped up requesting a machine reset. With a temp set @ 235C the error will not be triggered until reaching ~190C. Upon resetting the machine it boots back up error-free and I am able to begin printing again. I am unable to get more than 1 hour of printing in before triggering this error. I have scoured each connection at the extruder and main board and have verified everything is plugged in correctly.

Do you have any insight as to what I am experiencing?

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby Jetguy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:59 pm

pearson222 wrote: The printer fired up and made it halfway through a print before the extruder heater temp slowly began dropping from the set temp until the error - "Error: thermal runaway extruder switched off" popped up requesting a machine reset. With a temp set @ 235C the error will not be triggered until reaching ~190C. Upon resetting the machine it boots back up error-free and I am able to begin printing again. I am unable to get more than 1 hour of printing in before triggering this error. I have scoured each connection at the extruder and main board and have verified everything is plugged in correctly.

Do you have any insight as to what I am experiencing?


Yes, remember, there are 2 totally separate but related functions.
The ribbon cable is carrying temperature reporting data. The reason for the thermal protector is to know 100% when and if this cable fails even for a second to then know if the temperature data- by which we determine should the heater be on or off is based. Again, the reason for all this, the old way, the cable could break connection, the mainboard keeps reading the same last temp before the cable breaks and is oblivious (no error message) and thus leads to thermal runaway. Again, the whole point of installing the thermal protector is all about detecting a cable failure. Without it, you cannot detect a cable failure mid operation.

However, the above is all about temperature sensing data. The OTHER problem is the heater power wires, driven at the mainboard and a completely separate wire harness and cable is separate connectors. This is why the temperature sensing cable could fail and the reason you have a runaway is the heater power and control is NOT in the same cable.

But here's the deal:
If the sensing cable breaks- you either get thermal runaway or shutdown- and with a thermal protector- this failure is met with a proper failure message of maxtemp.
If the heater cable fails connection- then the only error message you may get is the one you are getting "Error: thermal runaway extruder switched off". Why? Because again, what is happening is we know we are getting good temp reads. That is assured with a thermal protector installed. If not a good read= instant shutdown.
However, heater failure depends on the firmware safety code and the fact we know we are getting good temp data. The idea is the firmware is checking for a temp rise in so many seconds of the heater being on. However, this code is intentionally disabled when within 10C of the setpoint and so again, per your exact report, about 190C (greater than 10C below the setpoint of 230C) and a time period (hence why without heating it continued to cool MORE than the 10C starting difference) means the heater was commanded to be on and electrically was not heating.

So- check your heater wires to the breakout screw terminals and the 3 wire larger connector black cable near the larger screw terminals at the breakout. It's also entirely possible you actual heater could be failing most likely the wires flexing going into the actual cartridge itself.

Again, from a safety perspect, just understand the difference:
If the temp sensing cable and or circuit fails- either runaway heater or cold heater, but a dangerous situation to be in.
If the heater wiring fails- there is zero chance of overheating and massive chance of failure of cooling below the setpoint and not triggered until firmware safety code finally kicks in
But the real wakeup call- how long between the failure and when it is detected by the safety code!!! This is why you cannot depend on that as primary safety to prevent an overheat and lest we forget, only good if the temp sensing data is assured. Without a thermal protector it's all bets are off.

Jetguy
Posts: 2696
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby Jetguy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:10 pm

Again, the facts:
Printer powered on and passed basic power on test. It then started a print and heated to the setpoint.
It moved the head and for a time period was printing and moving the head.
Meanwhile, the wiring was flexing with every head move.
The error "Error: thermal runaway extruder switched off" is the thermal safety runaway check- NOT the mintemp or maxtemp error messages one would get from a failed thermocouple, a failed ribbon cable with a thermal protector installed, or the only valid mintemp error would be no thermal protector installed and powering on with a failed ribbon cable.
The combined error that we know the wires were flexing, this failure was mid print, the reported temp sagged to 190C well below the 230C setpoint, and that again, a thermal protector was installed at the time of failure so temp reporting data is assured. How can I say it's assured? Again, the whole point of a thermal protector is to throw an error message (maxtemp) that is guaranteed to shut the machine down in it's tracks. The only option when not getting that message and yes, it's an assumption, but a very valid one- the temp data is true and representative of what the actual thermocouple sensed.
So again, this is not a failure of the sensing circuit- no, rather a confirmed failure of the heating circuit- a separate cable and connector system and the heater cartridge itself. The fact it happened mid print and likely related to the jostling movement of printing and repeated flexing of the wires points at the cable or connectors- most likely at the extruder head breakout.

pearson222
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:14 pm

Re: Board Error 00 Extruder switched off. MAX...

Postby pearson222 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:31 pm

Jetguy wrote:The fact it happened mid print and likely related to the jostling movement of printing and repeated flexing of the wires points at the cable or connectors- most likely at the extruder head breakout.


I set both extruders to 235C and waited. They both heated up to the set temp but a few hours later were both at 25C with the target temps still set at 235. This was with the printer idle and no movement. I am at a loss of what to try.


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