Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

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billbucket
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Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Mon May 14, 2018 7:16 pm

When my Pro2 heats up before a print where a single extruder is being used, it waits for both extruders to heat up, then (only once both are heated) it starts heating the bed.

From the exported gcode, I wouldn't expect this. Here is the default generated startup section, with my comments added

Code: Select all

M221 T0 S90.00       ;Set feed rate to 90%
M140 S100.00         ;Set bed temperature to 100C, but do not wait
M104 T0 S250.00      ;Set right extruder to 250C, but do not wait
M109 T0 S250.00      ;Set right extruder to 250C and wait
T0                   ;?? I'm not sure, but I suspect this lowers the T0 extruder into place
M190 S100.00         ;Set bed temperature to 100C and wait
G21                  ;Set units to mm
G90                  ;Absolute positioning


From this, I would expect the bed to start heating first, then the zeroth extruder will heat and wait until it's done, then it will wait for (or check if) the bed to finish heating. But everytime both extruders heat to the set temperature (even is the set extruder has been preheated, it will completely heat up), then the unused extruder turns off when the bed begins heating (it's set to zero while the extruders are eating up).

So what's the deal here? Am I misinterpreting the g-code? Is the machine running its own start up before even executing this g-code? If it is running its own start up, how can I turn that off and rely on the more efficient g-code start up?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 15, 2018 8:17 am

Auto-heating both nozzles before nozzle switching and print starts is a newly added feature in Pro2 series. As Pro2 series has nozzle lifting system, preheating nozzle to high temperature is for in case the nozzle lifts at low temperature that filament inside not being melt properly which may do hard to nozzle tip.
Actually for both nozzles and heated bed, they are heating at the same time. Just the data feedback has an sequence.

Jetguy
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Jetguy » Tue May 15, 2018 12:42 pm

While I understand the reply here and the physical reason it's required for both nozzles to heat up, I caution that how this is implemented, you are definitely going to get more angry complaints from from customers.

When a machine does not follow the gcode, and when it turns on and enabled heaters not even commanded by the gcode, this is a safety issue. It would be one thing if the machine just followed the gcode and the custom Pro2 series profiles had starting gcode that had comments and explained the action and again, the cardinal rule, the machine followed the gcode with no added or implied extra actions, that would be fine.

That said, I cannot believe this one is true:
Actually for both nozzles and heated bed, they are heating at the same time. Just the data feedback has an sequence.

Really, for the Pro2 series when we got to hard questions was, what actual motion control firmware runs on the motion board and the answer was custom firmware started from scratch- and then we get the new machine and new firmware, and it has the same old Marlin bug as the current firmware? I find this whole answer completely unsettling that you will not and seeming cannot show the firmware used, and further, it has bugs that appear to show the possibility that functions and resulting bugs/limitations from Marlin got introduced.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Tue May 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote: in case the nozzle lifts at low temperature that filament inside not being melt properly which may do hard to nozzle tip.
Actually for both nozzles and heated bed, they are heating at the same time. Just the data feedback has an sequence.


That actually raises another question, no pun intended. Does the Pro2 not have the ability to sense the position of its extruders before starting? It sounds like this pre-heating scheme is just in case the g-code is going to ask a cold extruder to move, which would be bad. But shouldn't the machine know the position of its extruders and whether a cold one will need to be moved?

To add evidence to this, I had one print the other day that began printing from the left extruder (as it was supposed to) but the extruder was still lifted. This obviously caused the print to fail (image attached). I canceled it, cleared the bed and tried again, and the same thing happened again. I again clear it, went to the menu and lowered that extruder manually, then tried again and it worked. So, does the Pro2 not know the position of its extruders? If it does know them, then why must I wait for an extruder to heat up what will not be moved or used?
Attachments
pro2 extruder fail.jpg
Last edited by billbucket on Wed May 16, 2018 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

ABH
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby ABH » Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 pm

If Raise3D uses a motion controller firmware that is a modified version of Marlin, then they will be forced to share their modifications.
That is the condition for using SW (Marlin) published under the GNU General Public License.
So, as Raise3D wants to be a serious trustworthy company, I have no doubt that they will do so. They did that for the N-series printers.
No one will ever believe that Raise3D made "custom firmware started from scratch" for the Pro2 series motion controller.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed May 16, 2018 5:03 am

I apologize for my mistake. I have double checked with our software team, that the preheating sequence is nozzle first, heated bed later. Not heating at the same time but feedback one by one as N series, as the Pro2 series printer is no longer using Marlin based firmware any more.

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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed May 16, 2018 5:44 am

billbucket wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote: in case the nozzle lifts at low temperature that filament inside not being melt properly which may do hard to nozzle tip.
Actually for both nozzles and heated bed, they are heating at the same time. Just the data feedback has an sequence.


That actually raises another question, no pun intended. Does the Pro2 not have the ability to sense the position of its extruders before starting? It sounds like this pre-heating scheme is just in case the g-code is going to ask a cold extruder to move, which would be bad. But shouldn't the machine know the position of its extruders and whether a cold one will need to be moved?

To add evidence to this, I had one print the other day that began printing from the left extruder (as it was supposed to) but the extruder was still lifted. This obviously caused the print to fail (image attached). I canceled it, cleared the bed and tried again, and the same thing happened again. I again clear it, went to the menu and lowered that extruder manually, then tried again and it worked. So, does the Pro2 not know the position of its extruders? If it does know them, then why must I wait for an extruder to heat up what will not be moved or used?


Want to double confirm with you whether you have edit nozzle temperature values before print starts?
And would you like to mail the version number of your firmwares on touchscreen to support@raise3d.com. (As your account is newly registered, the PM function cannot work properly for by now.)

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Wed May 16, 2018 6:42 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Want to double confirm with you whether you have edit nozzle temperature values before print starts? And would you like to mail the version number of your firmwares on touchscreen to support@raise3d.com. (As your account is newly registered, the PM function cannot work properly for by now.)


I have tried both setting the extruder temperature before starting a print and leaving it at zero. Both still heat up fully even though one never moves or gets used. My machine version is 0.9.8.1652 and the firmware version is 0-0-31.

I'll ask again. Is there a way to let the g-code control the heating? The machine is clearly capable of heating both extruders and the bed at the same time, so I see no reason to sequence them. Am I missing some reason why that shouldn't be the case? Even the default g-code generated by IdeaMaker heats them in parallel rather than in series.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am

billbucket wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Want to double confirm with you whether you have edit nozzle temperature values before print starts? And would you like to mail the version number of your firmwares on touchscreen to support@raise3d.com. (As your account is newly registered, the PM function cannot work properly for by now.)


I have tried both setting the extruder temperature before starting a print and leaving it at zero. Both still heat up fully even though one never moves or gets used. My machine version is 0.9.8.1652 and the firmware version is 0-0-31.

I'll ask again. Is there a way to let the g-code control the heating? The machine is clearly capable of heating both extruders and the bed at the same time, so I see no reason to sequence them. Am I missing some reason why that shouldn't be the case? Even the default g-code generated by IdeaMaker heats them in parallel rather than in series.


Want to dig out why the nozzle lifting function doesn't work first. The reason why I asked whether you had edited the nozzle temperature before print started was I wanted to confirm whether after preheating completes before print starts when the nozzle should be switched to lift up at least once, the nozzle temperature is at low temperature or high.

The preheating and nozzle lifting is not inside Start Codes in gcode but inside firmware. We only take nozzle lifting into consideration but not bed preheating.
We will try to improve the preheating process in future version.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Wed May 16, 2018 4:33 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Want to dig out why the nozzle lifting function doesn't work first. The reason why I asked whether you had edited the nozzle temperature before print started was I wanted to confirm whether after preheating completes before print starts when the nozzle should be switched to lift up at least once, the nozzle temperature is at low temperature or high.

The preheating and nozzle lifting is not inside Start Codes in gcode but inside firmware. We only take nozzle lifting into consideration but not bed preheating.
We will try to improve the preheating process in future version.


Ah, I see. No, I didn't pause between the machine start-up heating and the execution of the g-code. In the failed print, both extruders heat up, then the bed, then it started printing without lowering the nozzle first. This was from directly uploaded g-code from IdeaMaker, not edited by me. The print I had done previously was using the other nozzle, but I'm not sure that should matter.

I realize now that the Pro2 is closed source (I thought it would be open like the N2 was). But is there a way to allow certain aspects to be configurable (Smoothieboard style)? I could easily have my mind changed if Raise3D is quick to update annoying aspects like this unnecessary pre-heating of an unused extruder and sequential heating of very time consuming processes that could be done in parallel. But, my experience is that usually when companies are needed to release new versions to software to fix bugs, it's on the timescale of months, rather than the day(s) I could do it myself.

Is there any chance you'll open-source the firmware? I can't really see how it hurts you to allow people to improve your product for you.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Wed May 16, 2018 6:30 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:preheating nozzle to high temperature is for in case the nozzle lifts at low temperature


Actually another idea occurs to me. Why not do this interrupt style like the runout sensor does? If there is a g-code request to lift a cold extruder, interrupt, heat the extruder, then perform the lift. Does that work?

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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 18, 2018 8:31 am

billbucket wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Want to dig out why the nozzle lifting function doesn't work first. The reason why I asked whether you had edited the nozzle temperature before print started was I wanted to confirm whether after preheating completes before print starts when the nozzle should be switched to lift up at least once, the nozzle temperature is at low temperature or high.

The preheating and nozzle lifting is not inside Start Codes in gcode but inside firmware. We only take nozzle lifting into consideration but not bed preheating.
We will try to improve the preheating process in future version.


Ah, I see. No, I didn't pause between the machine start-up heating and the execution of the g-code. In the failed print, both extruders heat up, then the bed, then it started printing without lowering the nozzle first. This was from directly uploaded g-code from IdeaMaker, not edited by me. The print I had done previously was using the other nozzle, but I'm not sure that should matter.

I realize now that the Pro2 is closed source (I thought it would be open like the N2 was). But is there a way to allow certain aspects to be configurable (Smoothieboard style)? I could easily have my mind changed if Raise3D is quick to update annoying aspects like this unnecessary pre-heating of an unused extruder and sequential heating of very time consuming processes that could be done in parallel. But, my experience is that usually when companies are needed to release new versions to software to fix bugs, it's on the timescale of months, rather than the day(s) I could do it myself.

Is there any chance you'll open-source the firmware? I can't really see how it hurts you to allow people to improve your product for you.


Is it possible to share your gcode file with us? We want to check whether there is any unknown issue we are not aware of in your start code. The nozzle leveling system should be triggered before printing in normal case.

By now, we have no plan to have open-source firmware.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Sat May 19, 2018 10:38 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The nozzle leveling system should be triggered before printing in normal case.


Isn't this part in the closed source start-up section? The starting g-code for the Pro2 appears to be largely ignored or at least made irrelevant by the secret sauce the machine runs behind the scenes. I would love to be able to help solve this problem with the machine, but that's clearly not an option.

In either case, here is the start up section for printing from the right extruder:

Code: Select all

;Dimension: 305.000 305.000 300.000 0.400
;Extruder Offset #1: 0.000 0.000
;Filament Diameter #1: 1.750
;Filament Diameter #2: 1.750
;Filament Compensation #1: 90.00
;Filament Compensation #2: 90.00
;Filament Density #1: 1240.00
;Filament Density #2: 1240.00
;Model Gap: 0.000
M221 T1 S90.00
M140 S60.00
M104 T1 S205.00
M109 T1 S205.00
T1
M190 S60.00
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z15.0 F6000.0
G92 E0
G1 F140 E29
G1 X20 Y0 F140 E30
G92 E0
G1 F6000.0
M117 Printing...
M1001


I don't know if the T0/T1 commands are the ones that are supposed to lower the extruder, but it's in the code, so I can't really say why the machine was failing the way it was.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Mon May 21, 2018 4:25 am

This is still happening. On a fresh start today, the printer never lowers the right nozzle to begin printing from it. It's apparently specified in the g-code to do so (the T1 command), but there isn't any documentation I can find that would confirm that.

Code: Select all

;Sliced by ideaMaker 3.1.7.1850, 2018-05-20 21:11:28 UTC-0700
;Dimension: 305.000 305.000 300.000 0.400
;Extruder Offset #1: 0.000 0.000
;Filament Diameter #1: 1.750
;Filament Diameter #2: 1.750
;Filament Compensation #1: 90.00
;Filament Compensation #2: 90.00
;Filament Density #1: 1240.00
;Filament Density #2: 1240.00
;Model Gap: 0.000
M221 T1 S90.00
M140 S60.00
M104 T1 S205.00
M109 T1 S205.00
T1
M190 S60.00
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z15.0 F6000.0
G92 E0
G1 F140 E29
G1 X20 Y0 F140 E30
G92 E0
G1 F6000.0
M117 Printing...
M1001


Are you guys planning on releasing a fix for this? I'd be glad to help if I could get access to the source code.
Attachments
Pro2 Fail again.jpg

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 22, 2018 11:28 am

billbucket wrote:This is still happening. On a fresh start today, the printer never lowers the right nozzle to begin printing from it. It's apparently specified in the g-code to do so (the T1 command), but there isn't any documentation I can find that would confirm that.

Code: Select all

;Sliced by ideaMaker 3.1.7.1850, 2018-05-20 21:11:28 UTC-0700
;Dimension: 305.000 305.000 300.000 0.400
;Extruder Offset #1: 0.000 0.000
;Filament Diameter #1: 1.750
;Filament Diameter #2: 1.750
;Filament Compensation #1: 90.00
;Filament Compensation #2: 90.00
;Filament Density #1: 1240.00
;Filament Density #2: 1240.00
;Model Gap: 0.000
M221 T1 S90.00
M140 S60.00
M104 T1 S205.00
M109 T1 S205.00
T1
M190 S60.00
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z15.0 F6000.0
G92 E0
G1 F140 E29
G1 X20 Y0 F140 E30
G92 E0
G1 F6000.0
M117 Printing...
M1001


Are you guys planning on releasing a fix for this? I'd be glad to help if I could get access to the source code.


Would you like to help export log and share with me? Or maybe directly open a support ticket from our support system. We are wondering whether it is due to any hardware issue.
And if you switch the nozzles to carry out loading and unloading several times, the lifting can always work properly or sometimes stuck as well?

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Wed May 23, 2018 4:19 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Would you like to help export log and share with me? Or maybe directly open a support ticket from our support system. We are wondering whether it is due to any hardware issue.
And if you switch the nozzles to carry out loading and unloading several times, the lifting can always work properly or sometimes stuck as well?


I opened a ticket. They told me it was a known bug that was fixed in the most recent firmware update. I'm running the most recent firmware update, the bug is still there. I reflashed. It's still there. It also wasn't mentioned as a bug that was fixed in the release notes. I'll assume they made a mistake informing me it was fixed and weren't just hoping that would make it go away. The cables are securely plugged in. I can get the nozzle to lower if I manually extrude filament. It works every time I do this manually, there is no sticking. It's not a hardware issue. It's a firmware issue that I likely could have debugged myself days ago with access to the source code.

Even better! My RaiseTouch was not at the most current version (9.8 vs 9.9). Updating did not fix the bug, but now when I cancel the failing print the Z axis moves down 100 mm, then the XY axes home, then the Z axis moves down another 100 mm! This is apparently another "feature" added in closed source. So I have to wait for the Z axis to drop by 200 mm before I can stop the bed and extruders from cooling down, preventing me from restarting the print. This is all made extra annoying by the fact that the unused extruder begins cooling the instant the bed starts heating up, so it's cooled down anyway, but I still have to wait for the damn thing to fully heat up AGAIN before the bed will start heating, all so it can sit there and not move!

This closed source must be closed because it's a total mess.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Wed May 23, 2018 4:21 am

Jetguy wrote:Really, for the Pro2 series when we got to hard questions was, what actual motion control firmware runs on the motion board and the answer was custom firmware started from scratch- and then we get the new machine and new firmware, and it has the same old Marlin bug as the current firmware? I find this whole answer completely unsettling that you will not and seeming cannot show the firmware used, and further, it has bugs that appear to show the possibility that functions and resulting bugs/limitations from Marlin got introduced.


What other bugs should I expect to see if this code is really just a rip of the open source Marlin code?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu May 24, 2018 1:47 pm

billbucket wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Would you like to help export log and share with me? Or maybe directly open a support ticket from our support system. We are wondering whether it is due to any hardware issue.
And if you switch the nozzles to carry out loading and unloading several times, the lifting can always work properly or sometimes stuck as well?


I opened a ticket. They told me it was a known bug that was fixed in the most recent firmware update. I'm running the most recent firmware update, the bug is still there. I reflashed. It's still there. It also wasn't mentioned as a bug that was fixed in the release notes. I'll assume they made a mistake informing me it was fixed and weren't just hoping that would make it go away. The cables are securely plugged in. I can get the nozzle to lower if I manually extrude filament. It works every time I do this manually, there is no sticking. It's not a hardware issue. It's a firmware issue that I likely could have debugged myself days ago with access to the source code.

Even better! My RaiseTouch was not at the most current version (9.8 vs 9.9). Updating did not fix the bug, but now when I cancel the failing print the Z axis moves down 100 mm, then the XY axes home, then the Z axis moves down another 100 mm! This is apparently another "feature" added in closed source. So I have to wait for the Z axis to drop by 200 mm before I can stop the bed and extruders from cooling down, preventing me from restarting the print. This is all made extra annoying by the fact that the unused extruder begins cooling the instant the bed starts heating up, so it's cooled down anyway, but I still have to wait for the damn thing to fully heat up AGAIN before the bed will start heating, all so it can sit there and not move!

This closed source must be closed because it's a total mess.


Would you like to try the testing gcode file we provide on your printer? We are currently not sure about the root reason about the issue your meet. Maybe it is due to something wrong inside start code, so that we want to ask you to help test our code.
For the Z axis dropping height in end code, we are going to open an option in touchscreen to let customer to set the height they want.

billbucket
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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby billbucket » Fri May 25, 2018 3:12 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Would you like to try the testing gcode file we provide on your printer? We are currently not sure about the root reason about the issue your meet. Maybe it is due to something wrong inside start code, so that we want to ask you to help test our code.
For the Z axis dropping height in end code, we are going to open an option in touchscreen to let customer to set the height they want.


I've been trying test code from the support team. It still has the same problem. I've reduced the repeatability to the following:

Turn on the printer when the left nozzle is lowered.
Try extruding from the right nozzle.

That's it. Everytime, whether it's by g-code instruction or even from the Utilities menu, the right extruder does not lower into place before starting extruding. However, if I extrude from the left extruder first, THEN the right extruder, the right extruder will lower into position before extruding. That is to say, the problem is clearly not the g-code and it's clearly not the hardware. The problem is inside the closed source firmware.

This would have been much easier to figure out by just examining the code. It also would have likely been fixed by myself or someone else in this community by now.

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Re: Is my Pro2 preheating correctly?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri May 25, 2018 9:43 am

billbucket wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Would you like to try the testing gcode file we provide on your printer? We are currently not sure about the root reason about the issue your meet. Maybe it is due to something wrong inside start code, so that we want to ask you to help test our code.
For the Z axis dropping height in end code, we are going to open an option in touchscreen to let customer to set the height they want.


I've been trying test code from the support team. It still has the same problem. I've reduced the repeatability to the following:

Turn on the printer when the left nozzle is lowered.
Try extruding from the right nozzle.

That's it. Everytime, whether it's by g-code instruction or even from the Utilities menu, the right extruder does not lower into place before starting extruding. However, if I extrude from the left extruder first, THEN the right extruder, the right extruder will lower into position before extruding. That is to say, the problem is clearly not the g-code and it's clearly not the hardware. The problem is inside the closed source firmware.

This would have been much easier to figure out by just examining the code. It also would have likely been fixed by myself or someone else in this community by now.


We tried your gcode, it works properly on our printers in office. We tend to think it is a hardware issue.
We will discuss how to provide a better solution for your case and feedback to you as soon as possible.


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