Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

SchMax
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Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby SchMax » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:58 am

hello @ all!

we have our pro2 printer since a good week now, and i noticed that the filament feeding motors are getting really really hot while printing.
i already read in the forum that this could be affected by retraction (mininal travel of retraction)...etc
i set the minimal retraction distance to 4mm an its still very hot!

we alredy had a filament jam right after the stepper motors (maybe because of this).
now we only print with the top-lid off (which is a bit annoying in our office space, because its a bit louder because of that).

today i noticed, even when i only print with the left nozzle, the motor of the right nozzle is very hot as well, even if it doesn't even do anything.
this is also when i print with the right nozzle only.
unfortunately i can't take any measurements, but i can't really touch them for more than a couple seconds.

is this hot temperature normal??

greetings
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:35 pm

In the passing weeks, we do have seen some reports from customer about the heat from extruder motor affecting printing.
We are currently looking for a solution for it. Hope can achieve some progress with the next firmware.

And we will try to stop engaging the unused extruder motor which should be not necessary for a total single-extruder print.

KS_Husker
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby KS_Husker » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:17 am

Good, I'm glad to hear you guys are looking into this. I hope a firmware fixe is release soon.

Ronvp
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Ronvp » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 pm

I have a similar problem. The extruder motors were getting hot after about 2 weeks of use and I had filament getting stuck in the motor. More specifically, I had to take my heads apart 5x!! (and BTW, that is not quick job!!) .. I then methodically did a trace and found that if I left the printer cover off, my problem wend away. How I traced is by staying at the printer and push the guide tube out of the print head (filament still in place) and repeat that each time the tube was getting close to the head.. Thus basically: prevent the extruder from having to pull the filament thru the tube..

I then looked at it closer and found that the Print cover will put a bind on the filament tubes (thus the filament motor have to pull much harder and over time with lots of retractions, it causes the filament/tubes to bind at the top of the print head/run-out sensor and also at the brass feed-thru tube.. The binding may be exacerbated by build up from small particles being grinded off by the filament going through the tubes..

For now, I am leaving my cover of and all problems are gone..

I highly recommend for Raise to look their routing of the filament tubes..i.e.: Have a pivoting guide on top of the filament run out sensor. and possibly a better guide at the brass feed thru. This will ensure that there is never any bind between the tubes and the filament and the cover will no longer scratch from the tubes rubbing against it(or making a little taller cover, or make the guide tube from a stronger material that does not easily kink or fold..

Also, if I have a unused extruder motor it only gets mildly warm at best. This is with the cover off..

Rogman
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Rogman » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:18 pm

is this with PLA? PLA has a very low "glass transition" temperature and should be used with the top off and the door open. here is a link to a lid prop set up that will make opening the lid a bit easier. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1324935 i hope this helps and you are back to printing soon.

Ronvp
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Ronvp » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 am

For me it is with PLA.. I did another test and when printing with the cover on, both motors get very hot, incl the one that is not used..lot of heat accumulating near the top of the printer.. Btw.. I am ok printing with the stop off, but not with the door open.. That is just ridiculous and a a safety hazard.. Also, lots of temp variation with door open and top off.

I am planning to raise my top and drill some holes to allow hot air to vent.. I will report back..

Never the less, the guide tubes kinking and dragging is a major issue with lots of retractions...

CV-Gate
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby CV-Gate » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:42 pm

Hello, any news on this? When could we expect the new firmware to be released? I'm having this same issue. Removing the cover works sometimes but if the printer is working for some hours it will air print for sure.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:19 pm

CV-Gate wrote:Hello, any news on this? When could we expect the new firmware to be released? I'm having this same issue. Removing the cover works sometimes but if the printer is working for some hours it will air print for sure.


We are working very hard to fix some issues, we hope we can get everything done and release it public soon. But still not yet completely finished.
For your Air Print issue, do you meet any extrusion issue with Raise3D PLA or only filament sensitive to temperature which may be related to stepper motor but not other extruder components and settings?

SchMax
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby SchMax » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 pm

just an update from my side:

we have now installed heatsinks and a fan-solution provided by our germany-based distributor.
i also installed the heatsinks on the X&Y motor, just because they are very hot as well.. unfortunately i don't know where the Z motor are exactly or how i can get to them..

since the no problems what so ever - even on 24h prints!

links below:
https://www.3d-drucker-experte.de/raise ... erie?c=269
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07913 ... UTF8&psc=1
Attachments
2018-09-18 15.13.43.jpg
2018-09-18 15.14.15.jpg
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KS_Husker
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby KS_Husker » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:28 pm

What heat sinks did you put on the motors, and where did you get them please?
I want to do the same exact thing on ours.

SchMax
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby SchMax » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:03 am

i put the amazon link in the post above..

they are very basic aluminium heatsinks - 40x40x11mm
i used a thermal adhesive foil to glue them to the motos (also bought from amazon).
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KS_Husker
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby KS_Husker » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:49 am

You are awesome!! Thank you SchMax!!

Ronvp
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Ronvp » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:49 pm

Great idea!!

In noticed in your photo that you extruder motor friction regulator appears all the way tight (Springs look closed).

For mine: Without filament in it, the springs are only barely compressed. Then with filament in them, they still have a lot of room to work back and forth, for sure mine look a lot looser than yours. I am not expert on these, but if you have these very tight, I can imagine that the motors have to work much harder and may get warmer??

Having said all that, I plan to get some of these heat sinks. Especially with lots of retractions, it will help keep it all cool

Edit - This is what I ordered from Amazon USA 21USD delivered:
https://www.amazon.com/Easycargo-40x40x11mm-TEC1-12706-Thermoelectric-40mmx40mmx11mm/dp/B07B5X1F27/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1537621075&sr=8-12&keywords=40+x+40+x+11mm+aluminum+heatsink
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0751GYD6N/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

CV-Gate
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby CV-Gate » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:16 pm

@Vicky, I have problems with every filament.
@SchMax, does this work with the Bondtech extruder?

charles@linquist.net
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby charles@linquist.net » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:19 pm

I made two modifications to my single-extruder N2. Maybe they will work with the "pro" model. First, I changed the stepper motor to a bigger one.

https://www.lulzbot.com/store/parts/nema-17-stepper-motor

I didn't change the driver. But the bigger motor definitely has more torque. And it is cheap.
Then I used thermal epoxy to glue heatsinks on three sides (both sides and top) of the new stepper motor and finally, put a 40 X 20mm fan on top (using screws that go between the fins of the top heatsink to hold the fan in place), blowing down.

I also printed a cover for the extruder that fits over the front and top, and has a short tube on top. An 18" piece of 1/4" OD tubing goes through the the fitting on the side of the unit and then is a tight press-fit into the new printed piece. The filament is threaded through the 1/4" tubing and makes it a true 'Bourdon Tube. Now, the filament unrolls smoothly, not in jerks. The tubing does hit the top cover but that isn't a problem. It works great.

SchMax
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby SchMax » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:59 am

CV-Gate wrote:@Vicky, I have problems with every filament.
@SchMax, does this work with the Bondtech extruder?


it works fine for my stock pro2 - i don't know if it will work with others..

glueing heatsinks to the motors will work with any printer i think :)
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calex_fr
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby calex_fr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:06 am

Just to say that I have the same problem, Two customers too.
alexandre Contat from France.

http://www.distudio3D.fr

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:14 am

CV-Gate wrote:@Vicky, I have problems with every filament.
@SchMax, does this work with the Bondtech extruder?


Does it mean that you also have extrusion issue with our premium PLA? If so, please try to make contact with us from http://help.raise3d.com.

MMER1116
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby MMER1116 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:01 am

I am not having printing issues but find the feed steppers to run very hot. I have printed a cover extender to raise the top cover about 4 inches. Printing ABS and PLA, the feed steppers run between 140 deg F and 150 deg F. Is this typical?

E3printable
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Re: Filament Stepper Motors very hot - even when not printing with nozzle

Postby E3printable » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:25 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
CV-Gate wrote:@Vicky, I have problems with every filament.
@SchMax, does this work with the Bondtech extruder?


Does it mean that you also have extrusion issue with our premium PLA? If so, please try to make contact with us from http://help.raise3d.com.


Vicky, with all due respect, my customers does not buy this machine to play around with PLA. Not yours, not others. They buy this machine because it is a closed up machine, marketed for ABS, Nylons, business printing. Not printing trinkets from Thingiverse. So please stop asking the same questions over and over, and start listening to what we, the resellers, and our customers are saying:

1.The stepper motors get WAAAAY to hot, the gears get so hot they deform the filament, and it gets stuck.
2. Printing with the lid on is just a dream so far, as it WILL fail after a few hours due to the extreme heat from the steppers, in combination with the heatbed, nozzle, and lack of cooling of the nozzle.
3. Heatcreep is a real problem, not a user error. The biggest problem here is the total blocking of the airsteam in the back of the hotend, blocked by the servo for the head lifting.

So PLEASE start working on the issues instead of trying to place blame everywhere else but the machine. Issue a quick update NOW to limit current to the steppermotors, speed up the fan in the back, and stop blaming everything else.

-Even Andersen
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