Unable to heat either extruder......

DavidBarwin
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:07 pm

I've had my Pro2 for a little less than 2 months and I updated to 0.9.11.612 and had a couple successful prints but now neither of my extruders will heat-up. I can't print or load/unload filament on either extruder. Never gets the extruders off of the low temp. What do I need to do to get this working again?

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby Jetguy » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:05 pm

I want to help you, honestly I do.
Here is what I know and it's actually common to both previous N series and current Pro2 series.
Yes, they use different mainboards and extruder breakouts, but Raise 3D maintained key elements the same between both versions.
#1 the temperature reporting is analog voltage across the 14 wire cable and connectors back to the mainboard. The signal is a simple 10mV (millivolts) per degree C. That voltage and thus temperature is what the mainboard uses to decide when the heater outputs should be on or off and PWM (Pulse Width Modulation).

#2 The actual 24V heater power and 2 return to ground wires that power the heaters are a separate large 3 wire cable that also plugs into the extruder breakout. The actual switching of the heater on/off happens at the mainboard. The only "electronic" thing at the extruder head breakout on the 3 wire heater circuit is LEDs across the heater terminals to show at the breakout when a heater is on. Also, note this is typical switched ground control of the heaters. Meaning- the 24V wire feeding them is constant on, and to make the return loop, the return "ground" wires are floating in the off state (24V) and grounded in the on state (giving 24V across the heater). This might confuse people not familiar with this common DC high current MOSFET switching practice. Most people think the positive wire is switched on/off and that not how this or many 3D printers work.

#3 back to the problem, the issue is that an intermittent wire break is HIGHLY possible, even probable in these and many printers. It just happens because the wires flex and if that wire flexes over and over and over at a sharp bend it breaks the wires inside the insulation. So from the outside, a break may not be obvious, but electrically it is not a good connection. The problem has been that with this system, while the thermcouple amplifer ICs on the extruder breakout can detect the thermocouple and the connect to the screw terminals failure, the mainboard cannot detect a disconnect of this critical temperature reporting signal coming down the 14 wire cable from the breakout board, then we have NO assurance that the actual reported temp being shown by the mainboard is real. Again, please, take a second to understand that, even if the 2 happen to match up say in the cold state, that is no guarantee the system is working properly and you and that mainboard are getting valid constant feedback of temperature from the extruder head. Worse, the mainboard cannot make valid safe decisions on when the heater should be on and since that is a separate and heavier wire connector that is less likely to break from flexing and less likely to be broken at the same time the temperature reporting is broken- we can lead to an uncontrolled overheat or lack of heat situation. Again, you cannot make a valid decision unless you know what the extruder actual temp is constantly, and if you cannot detect a failure of that reporting- this gets very bad very fast.

The problems we have:
#1 Raise 3D does not and will not release schematics. While I have gone to great effort to post here and public reverse engineered schematics of pinouts and connectors for the N series, I do not have a pro2 and given these problems, not super interested in spending $4k to document and fix and reverse engineer what Raise 3D has done in the Pro2 series. I offered to do this for them for free if they would sell me a board set or loan me one, of which they said they couldn't do either. It's bad enough for N series owner that you have me and others reverse engineering to produce schematics- but for Pro2 series- unless some fellow owner chimes in- this is a serious issue with any self help for the Pro2. They want it closed source, they want you to go to them. So, we do not have pinouts of the 14 wire cable and connectors to test and find the 2 analog signals for left and right temperature reporting.

#2 This same temperature reporting issue and lack of failed cable detection was discovered on the N series. From the time that we the group really got down to what the problem was, I developed a solution in less than 24 hours in the form of a mod as simple as adding 2 resistors. For those unwilling to make the mod, we had to wait months and months for Raise 3D to produce and deliver the safety board that did the same thing as the modification. So understand, there is some history here. There are literally N series owner oblivious to this serious topic and don't even have a required safety mod installed, and now we have a new generation of users buying the "all new and improved Pro2" that supposedly had these well known fixes and yet- no, the results do not lie- we have topics and topics of Pro2 users with temperature reporting and heating failures.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6580&p=28922
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The latest batch of N series in factory had been installed with Thermal Protector by origin.
On the new Pro2 series', the function of Thermal Protector has been integrated onto the Motion Controller Board.

Except that I'm calling BS here, what more proof do we need other than this entire topic of Pro2 users having cable failures and complete lack of error detection or safety of any kind kicking in??

And all you have to do is read my comments BEFORE this printer ever shipped to a single customer:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7107&start=60#p28380
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Jetguy wrote:#5 What details to address cable flexing concerns have been addressed? I mean if you say there are more sensors and potentially a motor or other electronics, isn't that making even more potential wires in the current cable harness that flexes and moves every time the extruder heads move in XY?

The final version will be a little different from the picture we posted on website. The cable routine is changed. We divided the cables as different types. And manage them separately.
Jetguy wrote:Are all cables failures detected with custom error messages? Example, if the filament detector cable fails- does that then stop the print and notify the user what cable failure is suspected?

Only heating system will have both hardware and software protection now.

Again, no, no it doesn't and this is a fail on a level I cannot begin to deal with on a weekend.
Further, multiple times- either tech support doesn't know the answer or is fibbing to us!!!
I'm tired of being given placating half truth answers. So are your other customers.

DavidBarwin
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:43 pm

I appreciate you JetGuy. Raise3D needs to fix this correctly and quickly.

DavidBarwin
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:35 pm

I tried rolling back to 0.9.7 but that didn't allow the extruders to heat either. Dead in the water.

DavidBarwin
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:00 pm

Tired of waiting for a reply to my support ticket I called and talk to support. At their suggestion I disable the motors and moved the print head around and in the back right position the thermocouples jumped to life. Support says its a bad power cable to the thermocouples. They aren't sure they have a replacement. Less than 2 months on this Pro2 and there's a cable failure........ not a good sign.

DavidBarwin
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:19 pm

I'm now in possession of replacement cables and in the process of trying to truly "isolate" the problem before doing so. Does look like it might be a bad connector on the heavy black thermocouples cable at the motherboard. Am going to look for repeatability before swapping cable. See video here: https://youtu.be/ZOEWxFWa7cs

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:51 am

Have you checked carefully also on terminal on board side to see whether there has any burnt spot?

DavidBarwin
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:30 pm

Next time it fails (statistically in the next 2 to 3 days) I'll check and see if the motherboard connection is burnt or not and let you know.

DavidBarwin
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby DavidBarwin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:25 pm

Failed this weekend and I pulled the connection to look for burning on the motherboard. There isn't much to see behind this connection as it's covered with the other half of the plastic connector.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Unable to heat either extruder......

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:19 pm

Is there any black point on the pins inside the terminal on board side?


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