Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

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Naser404
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:33 pm

Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:58 pm

I am having extruder jams, i fixed it once but now again.

I tried printing this part twice now and as can be seen it failed the 1st time but right at the end, yesterday i left it printing again and i woke up this morning and saw it again failed but as much earlier layer height.

I opened the LE to see the gears and i can tell that it stripped the filament again just like last time,
i tried heating the extruder but the filament is completely stuck and i cant even pull or push it with my hand.

I dont know whats causing these constant jams but might be heat creep, if someone else has this similar issue with the new PRO2 Plus and knows the problem and fix than please let me know.
Attachments
999.jpg
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2nd Try
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First try

Naser404
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:21 pm

I just tried opening the extruder and realized that the issue is ''NOT'' at the hot end side but rather in the 3d printed part by Bondtech, even now i cant pull the filament, its stuck where the gear mash on it.
Attachments
888.jpg
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Rogman
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Rogman » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:08 pm

naser, your problem looks to be more of a back pressure issue. here is good trouble shooting guide https://www.simplify3d.com/support/print-quality-troubleshooting/ is the bed set at the right height? what extrusion rate? did you set the bed height with the nozzle and bed both preheated? to remove the filament use a heat gun or lighter and heat an xacto blade up and slice through it just above gear then grab with needle nose pliers and pull out towards the gear.

Rogman
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Rogman » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:09 pm

also screw in tension screw on the side of the extruder until tight and then back off 3 full turns and test on a 20mm cube print.

Naser404
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:21 pm

yeah the bed is set right, if it wasn't then you would have this problem at the start of the print, but as you can see it either stops half way or towards the end.

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Jiter
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Location: Germany

Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Jiter » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:44 am

I will add to this Issue.
I think the whole Hotend gets pretty hot for "low temperature" Filaments like PLA and PVA.
What can we do to make it better?
Cheers, David
If you can dream it, you can print it! :lol:

firesped
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby firesped » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:09 am

this is caused by 1 factor. the filament is getting too soft in the bondtech extruder and melting.

2 things can cause this.
#1 voltage is too high on the stepper drivers for the stepper motors on the extruder. extra heat is transferred into the gears pushing the filament, causing it to soften and melt into the bondtech casing.
#2 the cold end is not able to prevent heat from traveling up to the extruder, causing the same effect.

I think it is more the case of #1.
the Bondtech BMG needs this setting: Current for motor: 0.7A (Vref setting = 0.5V)
since the pro has a new controller board, likely raise3d needs to push out a firmware fix to adjust those settings if they set them too high.

Alternately you could try and install a heatsink and cooling block on the bondtech bmg to pull off the extra heat.

I had this happen to me with the bondtech I had installed on my printer, not the BMG. because I used custom steppers that had different vref settings and actually required it to be set to have the vref I was setting it too. I managed to get around the issue via a heatsink/cooling fan at the time, since I didn't understand that the vref was off. I now have a Bondtech dualdirect BMG setup on my N2 printer with my vref set correctly.

Ultimately raise3d needs to fix this for you if the vref is set too high. it requires a firmware update to the controller board.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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Jiter
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Location: Germany

Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Jiter » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:15 am

Thanks Michael. That are things we can work with.

@Raise3D can you say something to this problem?
Cheers, David
If you can dream it, you can print it! :lol:

Naser404
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:15 am

I agree with Michael, because one thing that i also realized is that if you ever put the top cover while printing with PLA (I know the Raise does not recommend this) you will almost always have this issue.

so its definitely a cooling problem.

Alex M.
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Alex M. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:37 pm

firesped wrote:Ultimately raise3d needs to fix this for you if the vref is set too high. it requires a firmware update to the controller board.


EDIT: The below information in italic, as pointed out by Jetguy, is INCORRECT! The off board drivers are only used for the X, Y & Z axis drives and not the extruders.

I'm not sure about that. The Pro2 uses off the board drivers as shown here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8460&p=31011&hilit=pro2#p30980. The drivers are Leadshine DM422S-FZ drivers that seem to be a custom design and different that their off the shelf DM422 drivers.

I couldn't find the datasheet for the DM422S-FZ drivers but based on the pictures in the thread above I think there might be a bigger issue if the current needs to be set to 0.7A since the minimum current based on the markings is 0.8A. Currently the stepper drivers appear to be set at 0.9A, so changing SW1 to ON (currently off) on the appropriate driver should set the current to 0.8A and hopefully that will be enough.

If these where the standard DM422 drivers then changing SW1 to ON would put the driver is software current control mode (SW1=ON, SW2=ON, SW3=ON) where a firmware change would be needed. However based on the markings this places the DM422S-FZ in 0.8A mode and not software control mode.
Last edited by Alex M. on Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:07 pm

Alex M. wrote:
firesped wrote:Ultimately raise3d needs to fix this for you if the vref is set too high. it requires a firmware update to the controller board.

I'm not sure about that. The Pro2 uses off the board drivers as shown here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8460&p=31011&hilit=pro2#p30980. The drivers are Leadshine DM422S-FZ drivers that seem to be a custom design and different that their off the shelf DM422 drivers.

I couldn't find the datasheet for the DM422S-FZ drivers but based on the pictures in the thread above I think there might be a bigger issue if the current needs to be set to 0.7A since the minimum current based on the markings is 0.8A. Currently the stepper drivers appear to be set at 0.9A, so changing SW1 to ON (currently off) on the appropriate driver should set the current to 0.8A and hopefully that will be enough.

If these where the standard DM422 drivers then changing SW1 to ON would put the driver is software current control mode (SW1=ON, SW2=ON, SW3=ON) where a firmware change would be needed. However based on the markings this places the DM422S-FZ in 0.8A mode and not software control mode.


No, you got this detail incorrect. The pro 2 still uses onboard integrated drivers on the actual mainboard NOT the external drivers you are mentioning in the base for the XY and Z axis. Again, while I don't know every detail, I do know that the answer has nothing to do with changing switches on the external Leadshine drivers as they are not used for the extruders.

Jetguy
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:23 pm

Again, see this thread for a shot of the Pro2 series mainboard, the extruder steppers are still onboard. According to the picture, I do not see potentiometer adjusters nearby so they might be firmware controlled current setting.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8460

eb37900301de8b18.jpg
Last edited by Jetguy on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

firesped
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby firesped » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:19 pm

on my original bondtech upgrade. I had unknowingly set the vref wrong. It was twice what it was supposed to be due to how the vref on the steppers I was using works. This combined with a hot summer day, caused this issue to happen to me, where low temp plastic metled inside the bondtech casing. I probably printed out at least half a dozen replacements. ultimately at the time, i switched to high temp plastics.

everywhere I look, people are saying extruder motors are hot. printer is jamming. works with high temp filaments. don't work with low temp filaments.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

Alex M.
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Alex M. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:00 pm

Jetguy wrote:No, you got this detail incorrect. The pro 2 still uses onboard integrated drivers on the actual mainboard NOT the external drivers you are mentioning in the base for the XY and Z axis. Again, while I don't know every detail, I do know that the answer has nothing to do with changing switches on the external Leadshine drivers as they are not used for the extruders.


Wow, I really need to get my eyes and counting skills checked, you are 100% correct! I am so sorry for my mistake and inaccurate information. The stepper drivers I mentioned are only for the axis controls and not the extruders. I will edit my post above so it doesn't confuse anyone.

bolsoncerrado
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby bolsoncerrado » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 pm

Same boat here with Pro2 extruder jams, and FB is full of people complaining on the same. Ironically, R3D is not approving my posts about the issue here....wonder what they have to hide!?!?

Naser404
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:52 am

i hope someone from Raise can shed a light on this and provide details.

Prop-Fiction
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Prop-Fiction » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:01 pm

I think that it is one of the problems that can be traced back to the throat tube. I am now 90% sure that it is the biggest and only problem of pro2 that leads to all these problems.
I have made a few small simple changes to the pro2 today that can be implemented by anyone. until now after 7 hours of printing time under full load and the model that has only worried me he runs with dn changes like a kitten.
I will post the changes in a separate thread. I really believe that this solves most if not all jam problems.
Regards Carsten
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:24 am

Sometimes filament stuck inside extruder may due to that there has jam below extruder, such as in hot-end, PTFE tube, then the new filament cannot move in any more.
For any jam, we will recommend to contact Raise3D support to figure out the origin jam is at which height first, remove the jam completely or replace the problem parts then start another print.

Naser404
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby Naser404 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:24 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Sometimes filament stuck inside extruder may due to that there has jam below extruder, such as in hot-end, PTFE tube, then the new filament cannot move in any more.
For any jam, we will recommend to contact Raise3D support to figure out the origin jam is at which height first, remove the jam completely or replace the problem parts then start another print.


Vicky, the thing is these extruder jams as very common on the new Pro-2 as can been seen in many threads by users on this form, so the question is, is Raise 3D aware of this issue and are they working to see what is causing this or are they just assuming its user/filament problem ??

BazilFawlty
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Re: Pro 2 Plus extruder jams.

Postby BazilFawlty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:08 am

Prop-Fiction wrote:I think that it is one of the problems that can be traced back to the throat tube. I am now 90% sure that it is the biggest and only problem of pro2 that leads to all these problems.
I have made a few small simple changes to the pro2 today that can be implemented by anyone. until now after 7 hours of printing time under full load and the model that has only worried me he runs with dn changes like a kitten.
I will post the changes in a separate thread. I really believe that this solves most if not all jam problems.
Regards Carsten


Thank you for your effforts Carsten. I too have been struggling with filament jams on my Pro2 Plus so I am looking forward to your post on what you did to minimise these jams.


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