ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
Docmani
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ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:31 pm

Hey all,

I've been printing a lot of ABS recently. I've never had luck with the BuildTak surface with ABS. I bought a thin sheet of PEI from UItem (as suggested by a post on here). I've managed to get my prints to stick, but I've had to squash the first layer down quite a bit. Its hard getting the prints off and I've torn the PEI up quite a bit after only 10-15 prints. (A couple rips in the PEI - Quite a few air bubbles too).

My last two ABS prints have started lifting at the corners again. I'm thinking I'm unable to work out the air bubbles that have appeared and they are causing imperfections in the build surface.

So I'm about the pull the trigger on a new surface. I'm either going to try a thicker sheet of PEI that should be a bit more durable (what thickness do people recommend?) or I'm actually looking at the Geckotek EZ-Stik which I've seen people have luck with, but I'm apprehensive since there isn't a great deal of information out there about it.

Any other suggestions / success stories?

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Billucas
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Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Billucas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:05 pm

My suggestion is simple. Since 2 years, I have tried Buildtak, GeckoTek plate, PrinTinZ zebra plate, PEI, hairspray, glue, blue tape, glass, etc... With ABS,ASA, PLA,TPU,POLYFLEX,PETG,etc...
But the 2 bests surfaces up to now are LokBuild and GeckoTek EZ-Stik Hot 3D Printer Build Surface.
And I am not a reseller.

http://www.lokbuild.com/
https://www.geckotek.co/product/ez-stik-hot-5/

zemlin
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby zemlin » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:10 pm

I have printed a lot of ABS with good success on PEI, but it also depends on the particular ABS.
My PEI is .06" (1.5mm) thick. I buff the surface with 1500 grit sandpaper which improves the bite just slightly.

As you have experienced, too much first-layer-squash and ABS can be difficult to remove. I don't find over-squashing necessary.
Hatchbox ABS prints well on PEI with a bed temp of 105C (260 nozzle temp).
I recently switched to eSun ABS+ and am running that at 95C (270C nozzle temp).
eSun regular ABS is a lot more challenging, but I was getting some OK prints at 105C with only a little lifting, but larger parts had some minor splitting.

You might need to change your material rather than your build surface.

detroitus
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby detroitus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:11 pm

So, those two build surfaces that you are recommending. Are they specifically the best that you've found for ABS or just the best all-around? I've found that most surface materials that are great for some plastics don't play as well with others.

Docmani
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Zemlin - I am using Inland ABS. I saw one of your recent posts about ABS+ and I'm actually going to give it a shot soon. The problem is I still have 4 spools of this stuff sitting around that I don't want to go to waste. ;) I'm printing with a bed temp of 110 and nozzle temp of 260.
I'm doing some REALLY large prints that I'm going to have to sand smooth. Regular ABS sands pretty easy. I'm assuming ABS+ is similar?

detroitus - I've managed to have quite a bit of success with PLA and the buildtak that comes with the Raise3D. The surfaces I'm looking at are specifically for ABS printing

detroitus
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby detroitus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Docmani - I've had pretty good luck with Buildtak for PLA as well. I was actually asking about the recommendations Billucas made. The implication there was that those two materials were good for everything. I've never tried either of them and I'm skeptical.

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Billucas
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Billucas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:26 pm

detroitus wrote:So, those two build surfaces that you are recommending. Are they specifically the best that you've found for ABS or just the best all-around? I've found that most surface materials that are great for some plastics don't play as well with others.


They are also The best for ABS.

http://www.lokbuild.com/
https://www.geckotek.co/product/ez-stik-hot-5/

If you want less warping, buy ABS+

Docmani
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:42 pm

So I have a Lokbuild surface and a spool of eSun ABS+ arriving tomorrow for Amazon.

:)

I will let you all know how it shakes out.

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Billucas
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Billucas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Docmani wrote:So I have a Lokbuild surface and a spool of eSun ABS+ arriving tomorrow for Amazon.

:)

I will let you all know how it shakes out.


Great!
Take care not to clean your LokBuild with Isopropyl Alcohol more than 30% ( not 70%), as the supplier says.
Also, be careful for the z height between the surface and the nozzles. Not to scratch the LokBuild surface.

Also, try the Geco hot stick! 12 x 12"

See this for some prints viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7030

Luc
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Geckotek EZ-Stik Hot Build Plate
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Geckotek Build Plate
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LOKBUILD
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PEI

Aneka3D
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Aneka3D » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:47 am

i am using sanded/sand blasted glass, and use abs juice. it works like a charm

Docmani
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:38 pm

I used to use PET tape with ABS juice on my older printer. It worked great for me for smaller parts but when I started printing larger parts it wasn't enough.

PEI was definitely a step up for me. It was working well for me, up until the other day when my sheet tore in half when I pulled a part off the bed (It must have heard I ordered a new bed surface.) Just got the LokBuild in. I'm gonna give a whirl tonight.

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Billucas
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Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Billucas » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:52 pm

Here some images of some big prints I made with the LokBuild bed surface. To encourage you!

In the past, I have tested to put a 1/8" thick aluminium plate instead of a glass. Finally this was not flat or straight enough.
I bought 2 High Temperature Build Plate from Raise3d, in order to have many bed surfaces types on hand.
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Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:03 pm

FWIW, just an alternative that I am investigating Anycubic Ultrabase (Amazon has sized for a N1 214mm square, but you can find other 310x310mm plates suitable more for the N2/n2 Plus).
https://www.amazon.com/Anycubic-US-Ultr ... B0777BS1RB
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anycubic-Ultra ... 3011705745

The primary difference is that Ultrabase is a textured surface and includes the glass plate. It's on par pricing with many of the other options, but again, instead of just getting a new surface, you get an entire glass plate and surface.

It all kind of comes down to do you want a smooth surface or a textured surface.
Again, just offering an alternative that I am in the process of testing.

bwulfe
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby bwulfe » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:12 pm

I’ve found the best adhesion via plain glass, brushed with a layer of ABS slurry (dissolve some clear ABS in Acetone, then brush a few layers onto the glass. You want to use clear; otherwise, printing with other colors of ABS will leave a thin level of the slurry color, at the bottom of your print. ) I have also had very good results with Wolfbite-ABS (4 oz on Amazon is $29.95. https://www.amazon.com/Airwolf-3D-A0980 ... lfbite+abs , you can also purchase in 2 oz bottles for $19.95 https://www.amazon.com/Airwolf-3D-A0980 ... lfbite+abs). ... I have no relationship with the manufacture or sale of this product; I’m just passing along my suggestions, based upon personal experience.

Also, for my personal workflow, I have purchased a couple extra build plates from Raise3D. ($30.00 each for the N2 series). That way I can maintain different print surfaces, based upon the material I am printing. I don’t need to completely clean off the glass plate, when switching materials. ( This is primarily for difficult to stick plastics, such as ABS, Polycarbonate and Nylon. PLA is easy to print with Buildtak, Lokbuild, etc.)

Docmani
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:46 pm

Hey all, I had some initial success with the LokBuild. It does hang on to ABS pretty tight.

On a larger print I started getting warping at the edges. On further investigation I determined that one of my big problems is despite several attempts I have not leveled the bed.

I just put in a support ticket. It seems that even though I have verified good spacing at every perimeter point the point at the bed center is too high. If I try to pull it down I actually found I was bending the frame on the underside and the actual bed won’t come down.

zemlin
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby zemlin » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:21 pm

Docmani wrote:I just put in a support ticket. It seems that even though I have verified good spacing at every perimeter point the point at the bed center is too high. If I try to pull it down I actually found I was bending the frame on the underside and the actual bed won’t come down.
What you are probably dealing with is sag in the gantry support rods. With those rods being only 8mm diameter, it's sort of a fact of life that there will be a small amount of flex/deflection in those rods as the head moves toward the center. You can try running a heavier bead for the first layer - 150% or 200% layer thickness on the first layer increases the tolerance to an imperfect bed/extruder relationship.

EldRick
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby EldRick » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:58 pm

You could also replace the extraordinarily-heavy extruder with a Bondtech, and cut the sag substantially.

Docmani
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:53 pm

The Bondtech extruder is high on my list of things to upgrade to, but for now, I got what I got.

I got a disappointing email from customer support who said to contact the reseller I bought my printer from and basically told me "Don't print without a raft"

That said, I am managing to get my prints to stick again, but I really feel like I'm squashing the filament down too much for this LokBuild surface.

Is there a way to get IdeaMaker to extrude a thicker layer of filament for the first layer of the raft? I'm not seeing it in the raft settings.
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EldRick
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Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby EldRick » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:06 pm

PEI is also available with a textured surface, which helps with adhesion on larger prints.

Docmani
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:57 am

Re: ABS Build Surface - PEI? Geckotek?

Postby Docmani » Fri May 04, 2018 12:06 pm

I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I'm having GREAT luck with ABS+ combined with the LokBuild surface. I've been doing some large prints and in some cases multiple large prints using a good amount of the surface.

One other factor I want to add is I'm now using Simplfy3D as it seems to print a better raft. All the sharp corners are cut off and angled rather than rounded. I just don't get the curling on the raft using regular ABS that I seemed to get from an identical output from IdeaMaker.

In any case, I'm able to get consistent results on the large prints I'm doing which is great. I hope to share pictures soon.


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