Just Released N2 Pro

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
DragonXtreme
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Just Released N2 Pro

Postby DragonXtreme » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:59 pm

It figures, just got the N2 Plus this month and you guys release the Pro version. Looks like you listened to most of the drawbacks of the N2 Plus with the Camera, Bondtech style feeder, proximity switches, retraction heads, restyled bed and updated control board (not sure what the box is in the upper right corner). All look great, thumbs up to you.

Now I have a question, will you offer an upgrade package to current owners? It doesn't look like you have changed anything with the base and frame. Just curious. I kicked the can for almost a year before I purchased and now I wonder if I should have waited a little longer.

:)

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:18 pm

I would also be curious as to whether or not upgrade kits (or sub-kits) might be offered. I already have the Bondtech Dual Direct Extruder on my N2 Plus (From the photo's, it appears that this is the extruder used on the Pro2 ... you can zoom in and see the Bondtech logo on the side release levers), and I have preordered the run-out sensor. I would certainly be interested in ordering / installing the improved printhead carrier with retracting nozzles, new build platform and the upgraded motion controller. I realize that all early production materials would reasonably be limited for the production of new, complete Pro2 Series units; but would certainly appreciate the ability to eventually have an upgrade path; without the need to purchase a completely new printer. Freight savings alone would be substantial. (It would also be a great selling point for Raise3D, to show that, when technically feasible, buyers will have the ability to upgrade components to the most recent configurations.) Thanks

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easysofts
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby easysofts » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:28 pm

You wrote, you are working on an improved single extruder version of the N2 series. Have you more information about this ?

Have you planned an upgrade kit for N2 owners (buildplate, extruder, camera, optical end stop ) ?
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Timber Haint
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Timber Haint » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:33 pm

And damn it looks nice!!! Some folks on the forum wondered with the recent reduced price in the N2 Plus if there was a new model coming out.

The one saving grace for those of us who just bought recently is that there is a substantial price increase for the same build volume. It would have really stung those of us that just purchased if it was the same price, BUT I still want the Pro2 plus!

This appears (in my very limited 3d print experience) that this is going to be the "go to" printer for industrial high precision prints.

It does look incredible on paper. Anyone interested in buying a lightly used N2 Plus so I can upgrade hit me up. ;)
Last edited by Timber Haint on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zemlin
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby zemlin » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:09 pm

The main thing that I see that's appealing are the photoeyes replacing the micro switches. I'd like to see how that might retrofit on the N2. A proper cooling fan should never have been omitted, IMHO, but the Pro arrangement looks like you need to remove the front fan to remove a hot end. That would be a pain.

I don't think I would have paid the higher prices for the added features.

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awolf
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby awolf » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:18 pm

What I find interesting is the cost difference between the two sizes. I haven't read the specs on these, so there may be differences between then beyond the added height.

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Billucas
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Billucas » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:47 pm

I am almost a two years owner of a N2 Plus. I am excited by this new N2 Plus Pro.
The price is much more expensive than before, but yes with improvements.

Or, it is cheaper to buy a Bondtech extruder, filament sensor, thermal protector, camera, in order to upgrade
our old printers?

Luc
Last edited by Billucas on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

newraiseuser
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:28 pm

Are the changes on the Pro versions worth the increased cost?

Is it true that the differences between the regular and the plus version just double the height?

What kind of filtration system do you have? Any scientific test data on its effectiveness?

DS2017
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby DS2017 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:03 pm

bwulfe wrote:I would also be curious as to whether or not upgrade kits (or sub-kits) might be offered. ... I would certainly be interested in ordering / installing the improved printhead carrier with retracting nozzles, new build platform and the upgraded motion controller. I realize that all early production materials would reasonably be limited for the production of new, complete Pro2 Series units; but would certainly appreciate the ability to eventually have an upgrade path; without the need to purchase a completely new printer.


I too am interested in the new printhead with rectracting nozzles! I would throw down extra money to order that piece instead of buying a whole new printer for it.

zemlin
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby zemlin » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:06 pm

I saw a post on the FB page implying that they won't be supporting upgrades.

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Noren
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Noren » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:12 pm

And no N1 upgrade. :(

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Noren
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Noren » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:26 pm

I will be really disappointed if Raise3D don’t get the camera working/available for the old printers. Seems like we have been promised this for a long time now.

Vice Chief
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vice Chief » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:40 pm

Congratulations, Raise3D.

Personally, I'm most interested in seeing sample prints, and in more technical detail about the extruder. I'd also be curious about the long-term availability of the current models.

As someone who recently left a corporate environment, I can see the need for a "service package" as Edward mentions in the video. But I hope Raise3D continues to support the hobby, semi-pro, and small business markets by making any year-to-year subscription type things optional. After all, the reason I didn't choose Stratasys for my prototyping lab (in a big corporation) was because I really, really couldn't budget for that kind of thing.

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Mecha_Monster
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Mecha_Monster » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:05 pm

I really like this new PRO series, I am a two year owner of a N2, and it is still working as good as the first day.

There are still 2 things that I would like that they also addressed: Buildplate max temp and Spool Size.
IMHO it would be nice that the buildplate reach 130 degrees, not just 110. That would be very useful for pure polycarboate filaments. 110 max temp mean that you can only use polycarbonate blends.
The spool size chamber looks like is the same size, so I don't think you can fit spools bigger than those of 2.2 pounds.

Ill mark that in my wishlist :)

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:55 am

Vice Chief wrote:Congratulations, Raise3D.

Personally, I'm most interested in seeing sample prints, and in more technical detail about the extruder. I'd also be curious about the long-term availability of the current models.

As someone who recently left a corporate environment, I can see the need for a "service package" as Edward mentions in the video. But I hope Raise3D continues to support the hobby, semi-pro, and small business markets by making any year-to-year subscription type things optional. After all, the reason I didn't choose Stratasys for my prototyping lab (in a big corporation) was because I really, really couldn't budget for that kind of thing.



If you want details on the extruded, just go to http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html. I just installed this on my N2 Plus a few weeks ago. I’m fairly certain that Raise3D is using this specific extruder. It looks identical to the one in the Pro2 photos (with the Raise3D ID replacing BondTech’s on the front. ) the real giveaway is the fact that the logo on the side quick release lever, in the Pro2 photo’s, is the BondTech logo.

You can also search the forums for additional comments on the BondTech Extruder.

newraiseuser
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:10 pm

So, what the new Pro series allows us to do that the current N2/N2+ can't?

Jetguy
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Jetguy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:28 pm

I wrote a rather lengthy email to Raise 3D directly, so I'll post it here.
So, what the new Pro series allows us to do that the current N2/N2+ can't?

The main feature I see is the moving nozzles for dual extrusion. I'm sure the feature works, I'm sure the test users who got one had a great time (I was not a tester). Without more technical details, without actually seeing first hand how this is implemented, without putting it in the hands of the novice who I swear can break anything, making the mechanism more complicated than already as seen in current versions- I see a ripe disaster and some very pissed off users in the future. It's like the ideal mechanism. It works just long enough a reviewer likely to get one on loan will never see the frustrating- what if you do want to change a nozzle situation. To them it works like magic- all the way until it stops working and then the frustration factor will fully kick in. If you cannot change a nozzle now, if you cannot level 2 nozzles if your life depended on it, a nozzle that also moves- just think about that for a second.




My first thoughts are:
While I like the new upgrades, there are 2 sides to this coin, existing owners and then new buyers. How I feel about it matters for both groups, but in slightly different ways.

Example 1, moving to a 32 bit motion control is generally a good thing. Upgrading stepper drivers is generally a good thing. That said, there are a few questions:
What firmware specifically is now running on the 32 bit motion control, and if it's just marlin ported to 32 bit- my enthusiasm drops significantly.
What specific stepper drivers were chosen? Are they soldered on the board with zero chance of upgrade? If they are TMC2130s, that's not really an upgrade compared to the newer TMC22xx series with Stealthochop 2. Further, who's to say in 6 months something better doesn't come along. Point being, soldered on drivers might be good for tech support- but limits the "Pro" user.
Also, we cannot forget that the system has not changed. Gcode is still streamed over a USB to serial logical data channel. There are still all the existing rate limitations. I'm just saying, moving to 32 bit in a standard Cartesian printer has limited gain, if you couple that with just porting over existing Marlin firmware, it's not exactly a ground breaking earth shattering upgrade. Again, read this for what it is. This is an upgrade, but how you may view it as a user, what it really means, what it will change in actual real world daily use side by side compared to an existing N series printer is not expected to be earth shattering to the point you should feel your current system is inferior, In fact, your current printer right now today can slap in TMC2224 stepper drivers for $10 each and likely be a better driver unless that's exactly what they chose.

Example 2 is the moving nozzle system. Face the facts, they can say whatever in marketing, we've seen claims before. Yes, I believe the repeatability of the nozzle position is that accurate. Sure, why not? It's just one number. The part that is not yet proven is that given just a single week of typical posts in this group- how do you expect a user to change a nozzle and not destroy the hotend or leak? It's a more complicated system, reusing the existing hotends, you still logically would have to mount and level both nozzles, we cannot get users to do that now. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the new miracle of a century, but I walk away with a lot more questions than answers. Truth is, marketing at the Prosumer, they don't want you to change a nozzle, they want you to change a hotend or pay for a service.
I'm not doubting the new system does what is claimed or it's not that many of you think this is a good idea. But there is a gap between user skill and daily usage and required repair replacement on a more complicated mechanism that is not accounted for in these wish list features.

Filament detectors- already an upgrade and we've said this before, a bone simple system with limited detection features. If as rendered it's at the extruder- did anybody even think about how long pause (buffered gcode segments and those could be long segments) executes? This is why it's a bit too late if the detector is only mm above the actual drive gears of the extruder. Yes, small short segment prints use small short segments of filament- so if that's all you tested with- you think it works fine.

Heated bed upgrades- good. But, like everything else, some words and a picture VS actual production shipping and real world usage, you are hedging a bet on marketing. Again, the features sound nice, but until a couple hundred novice and pro users use this- we see how production quality is maintained, it's not a selling point I'm banking on, nor is it something I'm just dying to retrofit into my already working N series printers.

Optical endstops. If you managed to crash and damage a mechanical switch endstop, then logic says the same user is perfectly capable of bending the optical flag and crashing one of these. Accuracy never came into question in the first place, so this change, while good, is again not a game changer IMO. It's just different, not good or bad. If you really want, it's not hard or expensive to retrofit your existing, but if that was the case, why is that not a more popular topic?

Bondtech extruders- definitely a good upgrade. But again, for existing users, we already have this option and it doesn't require buying a new printer. On the other hand, how angry are some of you at tech support for claiming you voided warranty or they won't help if you upgrade, and yet in the back room, the company was switching to Bondtech anyway.

Again, my take is that for a new user considering this printer, yes, the upgrades sound great. If you are an existing owner, this does not mean your printer just became obsolete overnight.

Vice Chief
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vice Chief » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:26 pm

bwulfe wrote:If you want details on the extruded, just go to http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html. I just installed this on my N2 Plus a few weeks ago. I’m fairly certain that Raise3D is using this specific extruder. It looks identical to the one in the Pro2 photos


Thanks!

EldRick
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby EldRick » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:42 pm

I want the long-ago-promised camera. Don't care about the other stuff.

firesped
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby firesped » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:27 pm

Noren wrote:I will be really disappointed if Raise3D don’t get the camera working/available for the old printers. Seems like we have been promised this for a long time now.


from what I know of the system, I'm questioning if it is even able to run the camera.
RL name: Michael Nolen
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raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
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