cause of slipping filament

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harrisonaero
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cause of slipping filament

Postby harrisonaero » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:44 am

Is there a general consensus about what causes the filament to slip after some hours are are on the machine? I thought it might be a worn pulley bearing and replaced the right with the left and am awaiting results but am not sure that's it. Previously I had cleaned the cog well and also cleaned out the hot end (plastic is flowing freely). Other ideas?

If it ends up being the bearing, is this a common wear item and is there an upgrade or hack shy of replacing the bearing often or going with a Bondtech?

(N2 with V2 hotend and red filament that came with machine)

Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:28 am

The problem is the drive gear and the combination of a fixed distance idler.
#1 the primary grip is by how sharp and hard the teeth are so they bite into the filament. Just that alone a proper hard tooth profile that actually is purpose designed to bite filament. What I can tell you is, not all drive gears are the same and as such Raise 3D tried to source what they thought was OK, but OK doesn't cut the mustard. Simply put, there are better drive gears out there, 100% compatible and they are not any more expensive. Example here is these grip better than any other single sided drive gear setup because of the tooth profile https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZYG5Z47 Now yes, that's a 4 pack, but it's the only gear on Prime I know is the "correct" gear. Other look alike and are not the same profile and there is a difference.
If you can stand to wait, you can order just one or 2 from here https://www.3dp2go.com/38-teeth-steel-e ... p-450.html

This is a good sharp tooth profile
51HtxoCG6pL._SL1001_.jpg


VS what is more like the stock gear and a closeup will show rounder edged teeth
61Tbbvp-0UL._SL1001_.jpg


#2 However, the OTHER issue is that a fixed distance idler depends on EVERY roll of filament to be the exact same diameter throughout the entire roll and every roll to match to get the same pressure into the drive gear. Not to mention, different plastics are harder and softer and require different distance to achieve the same pressure. So this is why there is some adjustment room to move the motor in comparison to the v groove bearing. What you may not have read is that during the early Kickstarter days and the beginning of the forum, often discussed were mods to make cams and all kinds of spring loaded tension systems rather than the current fixed distance setup. However, Raise 3D has maintained the original design and sourcing and that left a gap for us to upgrade.

Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:35 am

I cannot stress enough, the problem is folks do not learn on day one the important of adjusting the fixed distance motor mounting position and thus preload pressure of the filament, let alone know to adjust it for near every different roll of filament. Maybe you get lucky and one roll works, one doesn't, the factor is filament diameter and hardness. Second, it's a feel kind of thing. It's not like there is a precision adjust screw here you set to 3 turns and it's good. You have to adjust, feed filament, put drag on the filament and see when it slips or skips steps, adjust, feed more and then get it right. No video or guide yet can teach you feel.

But lots of folks insist on running stock, then you gain a little more wiggle room on how critical the adjustment is by using a sharper tooth profile gear. Since it bites better, that's actually less drag as the filament is smashed into the gear and less pressure.

In the end, if you actually take this apart, understand how much that aluminum feeder block weighs and why upgrades are really upgrades in that they drop that heavy weight and grip better at the same time.

harrisonaero
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby harrisonaero » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:38 am

Thanks for the advice. It's a shame we have to be the guinea pigs here on such an expensive printer. I've lost a bunch of prints and time now because of this issue.

So, for those that have been through this, should I just skip stepper adjustments and gear swapping and bite the bullet and get a Bondtech? Is is worth it in other ways too such as weight and print speed?

Other options to consider?

Squenz
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Squenz » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:22 am

Bondtech DualDirect, now !

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Casale8
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Casale8 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:39 pm

I've not tested a lot of super soft materials. But, removing any real friction in the way the filament loads into the gear has worked perfectly fine for me with the out of the box printer.

The only mod to the box I have done is with adding a lift to the Cover and insulating one extruder hot end with: https://www.mcmaster.com/#2573k18/=1bamt0v

I have failures, but know that 90% are software or gCode my adjustments.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Casale8
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Casale8 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:06 pm

Jetguy wrote:Simply put, there are better drive gears out there, 100% compatible and they are not any more expensive. Example here is these grip better than any other single sided drive gear setup because of the tooth profile https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZYG5Z47

Funny I'll follow up my last post - I just received a second batch of a different filament and material is giving me a difficult time Proto-Pasta's CCPLA). We don't use a lot of soft materials here, but for the one I intend on using, I plan on replacing the gear with what you have shown above.

I don't intend on adjusting the motor location as a I don't feel that I should need to considering our material choices aren't greatly varying with what work for us already.

I'm not interested in modifying the machine to make it work "better." As it works 99% of the time better than expected.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Squenz
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Squenz » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:51 am

I don't have any experience on printing soft materials on my N1, but hard earned knowledge from my previous printer which shared the very same drive gear design, tells me, for soft materials, this drive gear design won't work as a stable setup. It's not like fire and forget after you worked out the obvious arising issues.

Sharper gear may help to get more, or even much more grip on the filament, but they also bite deeply into the material and cause distortion on the 'wire', sometimes even cut it halfways trough. A oblong distortion MAY be acceptable at the hot end entrance on our machines, but with the distortion also comes a more or less pronounced change of direction of the driving gear force, because the filament gets bent by the pressure you bring into it and the biting gear tends to not let loose early enough and change direction form 0° Z-angle to maybe -5 °. If so, you have to hope the PTFE tube on the entrance is good enough to cover the chance of angle, or you filament will just come out sideways sooner or later. You have to constantly check and revisit this, because, if things get hotter over a long print, adjustments have to be made to keep everything in check.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not advertising a BondTech DirectDrive extruder here, but for problematic filaments or prints where heat creep is a serious issue, their double drive gear design is just the much better solution.

Again, i have no personal experience in printing soft or rubbery filament on my N1 yet, but i'm absolutely conviced once i pull my old spool of ninjaflex out, i'll set the machine up, adjust the slicer to the filament, test print and then print what i want within two hours.


And then, repeat and repeat and repeat. In my opinion, that should be the one and only goal and this won't happen on a R3D stock extruder.

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Casale8
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Casale8 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:09 pm

I am curious if the gear is pressed on?

I've removed the set screw and couldn't remove the gear. I am hesitant to beat the machine up.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:47 pm

No, the gear is not pressed on. However, it is possible that either the setscrew deformed the shaft slightly or that threadlock was applied and that some is on the shaft. Don't beat on it, the gear should pull off the shaft. If you must, use equal pressure from both sides to lift the gear or use a screw style pinion puller. Printable example but there are many on Thingiverse https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2416216

firesped
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby firesped » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 am

I would think, if you replace the drive gears with the ones Jetguy suggests, you should align the motor with the new gears. another simple inexpensive "mod" I have seen people do is install washers to cant the extruder motor slightly for a better grip as well.

personally, i got seriously frustrated with print failure after print failure on my kickstarter machine what when the bondtech was shown, i jumped and got it. at the time, Jetguy was the person who knew how to program the firmware. But since he was not available to write one at that time, I learned how to do it. Fortunately I had studied C++ in high school and college. We needed a radical concept of a hybrid printer to support the bondtech with 1 direct drive extruder and 1 bowden extruder, which used different esteps. Marlin did not support that at the time.
RL name: Michael Nolen
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Monoprice Maker Select v2

Stanislav
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Stanislav » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:09 am

Casale8 wrote:I am curious if the gear is pressed on?

I've removed the set screw and couldn't remove the gear. I am hesitant to beat the machine up.


You must first remove the motor because it has two screws and not one :D you do not see the second one without removing the motor
Stanislav

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Stanislav
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Stanislav » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:40 am

And one more thing to say
I have brand new N1 and I am the last person in this forum who wants to give advice.
1.The problem with the soft thread is biger with the original head ( at this moment I have this problem )
2.We all have to accept that there are better decisions than those from the factory ,there is always someone who thinks differently and improves something so technology is moving forward and evolving
3.For myself, I will solve this problem as other people did B........h

Jetguy you have N1 may I ask for help from you for some settings ?
Stanislav

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Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:18 pm

I honestly want to help but unclear what settings you are even asking about?
If it's stepper driver current, the problem is Raise 3D used different branded motors so we then have to know exactly what model number motor (labeled on the back or side of the motor). Picture goes a long ways.

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Casale8
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Casale8 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Jetguy wrote:No, the gear is not pressed on. However, it is possible that either the setscrew deformed the shaft slightly or that threadlock was applied and that some is on the shaft. Don't beat on it, the gear should pull off the shaft.


Didn't realize there were two. Thanks for your help. For the Dual I replaced both gears without issue. Testing printing use now.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Stanislav
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Stanislav » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:12 pm

Jetguy wrote:I honestly want to help but unclear what settings you are even asking about?
If it's stepper driver current, the problem is Raise 3D used different branded motors so we then have to know exactly what model number motor (labeled on the back or side of the motor). Picture goes a long ways.


I will need help with step settings the new one http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/raise3d/raise3d-dualdirect-upgrade.html DualDirect upgrade he will come with new motors and I think the current settings will not work
Stanislav

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Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:28 pm

Correct, but there are also instructions that cover this. http://shop.bondtech.se/shop/ws71/47371 ... t.docx.pdf

Stanislav
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Stanislav » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:39 pm

I saw that's , I mean for settings for ''E'' motors steps per unit
Stanislav

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Casale8
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Casale8 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:09 pm

Casale8 wrote:
Jetguy wrote:No, the gear is not pressed on. However, it is possible that either the setscrew deformed the shaft slightly or that threadlock was applied and that some is on the shaft. Don't beat on it, the gear should pull off the shaft.


Didn't realize there were two. Thanks for your help. For the Dual I replaced both gears without issue. Testing printing use now.


Test is printing better than it has been before with the super finicky CCPLA. Thanks for your help!
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: cause of slipping filament

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:14 pm

Stanislav wrote:I saw that's , I mean for settings for ''E'' motors steps per unit


provided you updated to the latest Raisetouch firmware version, you simply go to hardware settings and steps per mm.

Home.jpg

2.jpg

3Hardware.jpg

Steps per unit.jpg

Final.jpg


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