Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:09 am

There is a written document on this page: http://www.bondtech.se/en/docs/

AR_LA
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby AR_LA » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:03 pm

Not for the new dual direct drive kit though. The PDF installation is for the mini/Bowden setup.

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:06 am

Here is the manual, I've got from Martin:
Bondtech DualDirect assembly V1.0.pdf
(1.17 MiB) Downloaded 165 times

Maybe it's not the latest version - so just ask him if you have doubts...

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:03 pm

socke wrote:Here is the manual, I've got from Martin:
Bondtech DualDirect assembly V1.0.pdf

Maybe it's not the latest version - so just ask him if you have doubts...


Hmmm. Mine arrived pre-assembled, but this is useful background info.

Do you do the pin-swap for both motor cables ?

How much should the two spring-loaded screws on either side of the Bondtech be tightened down ?

Thanks!

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:04 pm

No, you only do the pin swap when you find the motor rotating the incorrect way. Test first, then decide if it needs changed.
Just tight enough that you can still push the lever by hand and release the filament.

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:45 am

I had to flip the pins on both cables around, but was able to get it to load and unload PLA w/ out any problems.

Now the carrier assembly shudders up against the Y end-stop at the home position like it can't find home.
I didn't have a problem with this with the old extruder block though. Are there X/Y limits I need to adjust in the firmware ?

On further inspection it seems like the lever broke off the front Y limit-switch, but I haven't found any metal bits in the cabinet.
(Maybe it never had one ? )
20171118_212639_HDR.jpg

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:58 pm

It definitely should have a lever, otherwise the little target switch actuator must be perfectly aligned to the screw on the carriage that hits it.

No, there are no soft limits or offsets to adjust. This is pure and simple hardware failure to trigger an endstop during homing.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:01 pm

It definitely should have a lever, otherwise the little target switch actuator must be perfectly aligned to the screw on the carriage that hits it.

No, there are no soft limits or offsets to adjust. This is pure and simple hardware failure to trigger an endstop during homing.

Ignore the wording on this link, Raise 3D setting up the store just copied an existing page for new items as they added them.
This actually is a limit switch link.
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/acc ... ssembly-v2
Endstop_Board-1_1024x1024.jpg

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:15 am

Jetguy wrote:It definitely should have a lever, otherwise the little target switch actuator must be perfectly aligned to the screw on the carriage that hits it.

No, there are no soft limits or offsets to adjust. This is pure and simple hardware failure to trigger an endstop during homing.

Ignore the wording on this link, Raise 3D setting up the store just copied an existing page for new items as they added them.
This actually is a limit switch link.
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/acc ... ssembly-v2
Endstop_Board-1_1024x1024.jpg


Ordered and installed!.
That seems to have done the trick, although I've noticed that the lever-end is a bit shorter than the one it replaced.
It homed okay in the couple tests I did, so hopefully that's taken care of.

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:53 am

Just wanted to drop a note here as well that after weekend's work and help from the fine folks here, I now have an XYZ Calibration cube in my hands, fresh off the build plate and extruded from my brand new Bondtech!
Pics here in the User Gallery forum:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4904

I'm sure this is not the end of tweaking and fiddling, but it's encouraging to hold(and squish) visible progress between my fingers :)

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:32 pm

That video is spot on. Just follow it. If you run into problems, this thread will have the answer somewhere.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:22 pm

A few other notes:
The compression between the two gears in the Bondtech should be rather light in comparison to something like PLA or ABS or whatever. If you tighten it down too much, it will kink, particularly if you leave it loaded when you're not using it.

Pre-heating the bed and the nozzle under "Tune" vs. letting it heat up in prep to print with the filament loaded seems to cause the least problems.
So far, this workflow has generated good results for me:
1. without filament loaded, pre-heat the bed and nozzle under the "Tune" settings.
2. Once your desired temp is reached, load your flexible filament like you normally would from the "Utilities" panel.
3. queue up your print.
4. After the print has completed:
-Unload if you are finished with the filament. It may kink or crease otherwise.
-Select "Add to queue" instead of "Done" from the Success menu on the front panel to print again.
5. If you get a jam/clog when trying to unload, pull on the filament. It's stretchy enough that under tension and with the gears rolling, it might snap back into shape along the path and come out. If you pull too hard and it snaps, unscrew the side panel that contains the outer gear and try to tease the filament out with a pair of tweezers. I had to work it a bit here and there, but it did kind of sproing out of the pathway and then I was able to pull it out of the hotend through the throat and out the side. I trimmed the filament, reloaded and it dispensed from the nozzle okay and I was went on to print robot tires w/ the TPE after that.

Basically, keep the filament going as long as you're going to be printing w/ it. Unload if not. The more it's kept in motion, the less likely it's going to be to move out of the feeder mechanism.

AR_LA
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby AR_LA » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:16 am

I just tried installing my dual direct, and it looks like it's not going to happen without a ton of rewiring, or making a new little holder for the breakout board. My breakout board doesn't fit in the bondtec little shield, and both the heater/thermocouple, and the fan wires are much to short to fit in the new configuration they show.

And now that my printer is apart, I can't exactly quickly print up something to fix it. Super frustrating.

Iamkar33m
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Iamkar33m » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:22 am

AR_LA wrote:I just tried installing my dual direct, and it looks like it's not going to happen without a ton of rewiring, or making a new little holder for the breakout board. My breakout board doesn't fit in the bondtec little shield, and both the heater/thermocouple, and the fan wires are much to short to fit in the new configuration they show.

And now that my printer is apart, I can't exactly quickly print up something to fix it. Super frustrating.


I have a dedicated standby printer for fixing my production machines. It's a cheapy little Monoprice Select Mini v2, but it's certainly paid itself off many times over.

AR_LA
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby AR_LA » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:05 pm

That’s a good idea. I zip tied the breakout board on, wrapped in silicone, it’s working but I can’t use the back inch of the build plate.

I’ve modeled an adapter that will let me keep that board in the original configuration, just need to fine tune the hole placement. I have no interest in redoing all the breakout board wires just because someone decided it would look cool to turn it 90 degrees

Edit: added my holder for the breakout board. It’s basically in the same position as it was with the older bondtech extruder, and still has clearance over the frame of the printer in the back. It’s a very simple design, and just uses 2 heatset M3 inserts.
Attachments
B1A9FACE-1240-458F-BCB0-2EF5C4036650.jpeg

Francisco munoz
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Francisco munoz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:28 pm

firesped wrote:firmware based on firmware 1.1.6 upgraded for Hybrid mode.

N1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/38qmrc582x456 ... .firm?dl=0

N2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c32t9epeit1yk ... .firm?dl=0

N2 PLUS - https://www.dropbox.com/s/na4b2cz1nm2xw ... .firm?dl=0

Default extruder step-e is set to same step-e as normal firmware @94. Contain Hybrid mode. Hybrid mode overrides step-e values. Hybrid mode works during filament load.

default for extruder 0 is 140
default for extruder 1 is 476.5

These can be changed with added gcode, M992

M992 H0 = hybrid mode off
M992 H1 = hybrid mode on
M992 T0 E# will set step-e for extruder 0 (left side)
M992 T1 E# will set step-e for extruder 1 (right side)

example: M992 T1 E140
This will set the right side to step-e 140.

Changes will be lost if you reboot the printer.

let me know if there is another configuration you might want?

edit: adding some more configurations.

Mini configuration. 2 extruders at step-e 140

N1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/gc0qd64qixhpn ... .firm?dl=0
N2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/8q3vmp37slu13 ... .firm?dl=0
N2+ - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ii6e9lt8utvtl ... .firm?dl=0

Hybrid mode default off. functions like normal printer but can turn hybrid mode on.

N1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/py4o6vvq0x8so ... .firm?dl=0
N2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/b34yw1he3wl34 ... .firm?dl=0
N2+ - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ijuyqvkxza2te ... .firm?dl=0

Note: I should probably get jetguy's temp controlled fan mod and add it as an option that can be #defined.
1.1.6H firmware is located at https://github.com/Firesped/Marlin-Rais ... ree/1.1.6H


Anyone able to help me out bontech customer service is great problem is you will wait a vary vary long time for each response my problem is when I load left the right nozzle heats up because this extruder is in reverse to original yes I reversed the wires therefore it loads but why the reversal on where left and right is.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:26 pm

DO NOT power this on until you fix this dangerous level of mistake you created.
On a dual extruder with 2 thermocouples and 2 heaters, it's entirely possible to cross wire the wrong heater to the wrong thermocouple. It's also possible that this mistake would not throw a firmware safety fault, and absolutely possible to have a serious thermal runaway meltdown.

It is imperative as a user of this printer- upgrade or not, to not mix the wiring to the extruder head breakout. The heater and the thermocouple pair must be also connected to the proper input (thermocouple) and output (heater) on the breakout or else, you are not providing feedback and thus no temperature control can happen for that feeder.

You are literally going to have to remove the wires from the screw terminals, pull or tug on the wires and observe them at the hotend side and ensure you know what heater wires and what thermocouple wires go to each heater block. Then label them or somehow mark them (example ziptie the heater wire and matching thermocouple wires together as a "pair"). You can "get away with" marking one side, say put a mark on both the left heater wires and left thermocouple wires, and then the right thermocouple and heater pair are unmarked as a solution.

Then at the breakout the upper pair as normally mounted is the LEFT heater block and the lower pair is the RIGHT heater block.
Study this picture closely.
raise3d NuEi headbreakout.jpg.jpg


Then after you repair this mixup, you MUST perform a safety sanity check test.
ONLY set the preheat of the left extruder to 50C using the LCD menu. The instant you set that, observe the temp rise in the correct side of the heater and only let it rise from room temp about 10-15C BEFORE ending the test (not letting it reach 50C). Use a temp probe and ensure that hotend actually got warm. Obviously use caution here and why we only ran the test for a few seconds and stopped when we saw a minimal temp rise. If you turned it on and did not see a temp rise or did not see correct hotend rise in temp, stop, retrace the wiring and start over.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:35 pm

Again, some of you might be quick to say wouldn't thermal runaway protection catch this error since the expected heater rise over time limits are not met? If the user preheats both extruders, both would be heating at the same time. In this scenario, it's entirely possible that safety limits are not invoked. Only after some time, would the fact the decoupled temp sensor to heater block become obvious, and by then you are potentially way out of control.

I cannot stress enough, this is a classic dual extruder failure mode where a user messes with the wiring and makes this crossed heater or sensor mistake. It happens all the time all over the world. It's a result of non keyed or non specific wiring, where left and right are common parts, same color wires, and so forth. Users simply make a mistake, but the training, instructions, and emphasis of what this mistake means is not brought out to the user and fear is not properly felt.

Bottom line, if you do not know what you are doing, DO NOT ever touch heater and thermocouple wiring. I know that is harsh, but the reality is, your life could depend on it. https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/com ... h=e4afc9b9

Are you listening Raise 3D? This is why I am harping on you about the Pro2 and who you are marketing to.
These same common screw terminal wiring, lack of major instructions, safety warnings and details- it's going to catch up to you one day.

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Billucas
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Billucas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:08 am

Jetguy wrote:Bottom line, if you do not know what you are doing, DO NOT ever touch heater and thermocouple wiring. I know that is harsh, but the reality is, your life could depend on it. https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/com ... h=e4afc9b9
.

https://youtu.be/VK_K6fp4BIk

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Sethar00
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Sethar00 » Thu May 31, 2018 8:00 pm

lami3d wrote:Hello,

brilliant subject and contributions !
Even if i haven't understand everything yet, i feel now concerned by some original extruder issues exactly like GJohns said.
So, as i have already improved my prints following the bed levelling mod and increasing my objet cooling, i have to continue with this bontech mod.

I just want to now if i understood well the basics (i have a N2+) :

- i have to order the kit for N2 (i have rev1) -> is the hybrid works fine without the bowden extruder or would i prefer install an other bondtech kit if i choose to only print with one noozle ? i was thinking order the hybrid and bowden to be able to get dual extrusion if necessary but i'm not going to often use the bowden one. I have also to check what part do i have to print to install this mod.

- Install it following guide instructions (be carefull to the length of wire on N2+)

- Set voltage to 0.6V (instead of 0.9V) following Thruster experience

- Set "M92 E140" at the begining of the Gcode


Am i missing something important ?



This really helped me out. I followed the directions provided by Bondtech to a T which said to set the voltage to .5V and my gears wouldn't turn. Adjusting them up to .62V seemed to work like a charm. Thanks to all.
~Sethar00
_N2+, Bondtech Dual-D Ext Upgrade


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