Coasters

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jon_bondy
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Coasters

Postby jon_bondy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 pm

So, today I made about 6 PolyCarbonate warped coasters. I made them on both GeckoTek and BuildTak surfaces. I made them on surfaces that were carefully cleaned with isopropyl alcohol. I made them after carefully adjusting the Z height so that the extruders started at the correct height. I used old gCode files and newly generated files. I made them on the corner of the build plate and in the center of the build plate. Build plate is at 100; extruder is at 260. This was working just fine a few weeks ago. Today I can't print a raft to save my life. They all lift up on one edge (the back edge, in case you are curious).

Any recommendations about how to make some progress?

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Billucas
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:42 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Coasters

Postby Billucas » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:43 pm

My suggestion is simple. Since 2 years, I have tried Buildtak, GeckoTek plate, PrinTinZ zebra plate, PEI, hairspray, glue, blue tape, glass, etc... With ABS,ASA, PLA,TPU,POLYFLEX,PETG,etc...
But the 2 bests surfaces up to now are LokBuild and GeckoTek EZ-Stik Hot 3D Printer Build Surface.
And I am not a reseller.

http://www.lokbuild.com/
https://www.geckotek.co/product/ez-stik-hot-5/

Jetguy
Posts: 2700
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Coasters

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:24 am

My first thought is not the buildplate, it's the fact this Spring is all over temp wise.
The thing you have to understand is you do not have a patent protected chamber temp control and even heated airflow.
That's literally the line in the sand between a over $10k+ patent protected printer and a consumer printer.

So, this thing of you guys trading back and forth profiles and settings nonsense, what you fail to do to help each other is record the ambient temp and humidity and the inside the printer temp and humidity. You worry so much about settings, and then totally ignore the one value that matters more than anything, the actual chamber temp.

So what settings worked 3 weeks ago, with something as simple as a 10-15C outside ambient temp change, is the difference between warping and not. Heck, you might even tell me it's a controlled space and the temp your home/office thermostat was the same. It's simply not. As your location goes through temp changes, even if you set a thermostat, depending on floor air ducts, ceiling air ducts, steam heat, gas heat, heat pump, you will see significant changes in temp at different heights from the floor in the room. This results in different chamber temps and thus the 3D printing process layer by layer and the specific plastic used is affected. We simply do not have a heat controlled temperature stabilized chamber on these printers. Yes, they are enclosed, yes we have a heated bed, but that is not the be all end all and the user absolutely can end up in situations where heated bed and being enclosed does not compensate for ambient air temp and humidity.

Whenever you print with high shrinkage materials- they are extremely temperature sensitive in the process.

I'm not doubting using the best bed surface you can is part of the success ratio, but the more you understand the actual nature of the plastic you are printing, the more you get your head straight about what printing a hot layer does and when it solidifies and you print another hot layer on top- why you get warping, no amount of bed adhesion on the planet can combat these forces. The trick is controlling the ambient air temp such that the plastic layer cools to a given set temp before the next layer is put on top. Then only when the print is over, the entire part as a unit is allowed to cool to ambient.

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jetdillo
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Coasters

Postby jetdillo » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:52 am

Jetguy wrote:My first thought is not the buildplate, it's the fact this Spring is all over temp wise.
The thing you have to understand is you do not have a patent protected chamber temp control and even heated airflow.
That's literally the line in the sand between a over $10k+ patent protected printer and a consumer printer.

So, this thing of you guys trading back and forth profiles and settings nonsense, what you fail to do to help each other is record the ambient temp and humidity and the inside the printer temp and humidity. You worry so much about settings, and then totally ignore the one value that matters more than anything, the actual chamber temp.

So what settings worked 3 weeks ago, with something as simple as a 10-15C outside ambient temp change, is the difference between warping and not.


I've seen this at the shared-space shop I used to work out of. I could print things all day perfectly, right up until the sun went down, or right up until somebody turned on one of the big shop fans and it blew air all around the place. Suddenly, everything that had been working perfectly throughout the day just completely started to fall apart settings-wise with a 5-10 degree drop in ambient temperature.

I would say that you don't need a patent-protected chamber or enclosure, but you do need a way to keep the heat in, or at least guard against a good stiff breeze coming through the windows.

Daws
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:41 am
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Coasters

Postby Daws » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:42 am

Jetguy wrote:My first thought is not the buildplate, it's the fact this Spring is all over temp wise.
The thing you have to understand is you do not have a patent protected chamber temp control and even heated airflow.
That's literally the line in the sand between a over $10k+ patent protected printer and a consumer printer.



I noticed this recently when printing one of the 3DLabprint models using the pre-prepared Gcode. I live in a semi-tropical area, we basically have 3 seasons, they are called "hot", "warm and steamy", and "is it cold enough to put on the heater?"; we are currently in the "warm and steamy" season.

I printed the left wing set, then I printed the right wing set the following day, this print which showed signs of under-extrusion, the only difference was the second day was noticeably more humid. Looking at the first model, it had some marginal areas on it but it was acceptable, I believe the failure on the second prints was due to the change in weather conditions. I upped the flow rate on the screen while the second print was running and the quality was perfect after that point.

Jetguy
Posts: 2700
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Coasters

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:18 pm

jetdillo wrote:I would say that you don't need a patent-protected chamber or enclosure, but you do need a way to keep the heat in, or at least guard against a good stiff breeze coming through the windows.


What I was saying is that if you do not have a heat controlled chamber, then you the owner, operator, and maintainer of the machine needs to provide a stable temp controlled environment and monitor it when printing high warpage and shrinkage materials- which also just often happens to be high temp materials. You also should begin keeping a log book of your success VS failure prints of high warpage materials VS ambient conditions.

Again, users share profiles and settings, but then fail to share all the other critical details (environment)- most likely because they don't even understand they are critical and what is causing the success or failure.

jon_bondy
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: Coasters

Postby jon_bondy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:01 am

I am using the adhesive backed GeckoTek sheets

Billucas wrote:My suggestion is simple. Since 2 years, I have tried Buildtak, GeckoTek plate, PrinTinZ zebra plate, PEI, hairspray, glue, blue tape, glass, etc... With ABS,ASA, PLA,TPU,POLYFLEX,PETG,etc...
But the 2 bests surfaces up to now are LokBuild and GeckoTek EZ-Stik Hot 3D Printer Build Surface.
And I am not a reseller.

http://www.lokbuild.com/
https://www.geckotek.co/product/ez-stik-hot-5/

jon_bondy
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: Coasters

Postby jon_bondy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:02 am

I take your point, but my printers are not outside. I use them inside. The temperatures in my home do not change that much.

If this is indeed the issue, I guess I need to try a colder room and a warmer room and see which works better

Jetguy wrote:My first thought is not the buildplate, it's the fact this Spring is all over temp wise.

EldRick
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:55 am

Re: Coasters

Postby EldRick » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 pm

Flip the buildplate over to print on the glass side, and use gluestick.
In my experimentation, neither ABS nor PC stick to Buildtak worth a darn. I'm now using PEI.

jon_bondy
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: Coasters

Postby jon_bondy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 pm

@EldRick: it is interesting how differently many of us experience things like adhesion. I have been happy with both BuildTak and GeckoTek.

Turns out, for the record, that this may all have been due to my not paying attention. I switched from PLA to PC and closed all of the doors and the lid, but failed to put those little fan blockers back. With the fan blockers in place, things are going much better.


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