How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

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Noren
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How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby Noren » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Just curious if we have any people here that prints faster than the standard profile?

And how fast can we go?
Does ideamaker have a limit in speed values?
And what’s is the physical max speed of the printer?
Might it even be possible to set values to high and harm the printer?

zemlin
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby zemlin » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:38 pm

I've been pushing speeds some on my machine.
I have the Bondtech dual upgrade and also changed my XY stepper drivers.
I currently have part running eSun ABS at 90mm/s with the .6mm nozzle. I also push the accel and jerk settings way up for infill and support to decrease build time. (no support on this part). I shot some video last night.

I'm also running eSun PETG at 80mm/s with good success.

As far as IM, dunno. I slice with S3D.

From memory I believe my current jerk and accel settings are
Perimeters and solid infill A=1600 J=12
Outer perimeters A=900 J=9
Infill and Support A=6000 J=35
Jerk on Z is 3. Don't recall Z velocity setting. I'd be curious to know if anyone has tested the limits of the Z axis.
Last edited by zemlin on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jetguy
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby Jetguy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:38 pm

#1 you cannot set values too high and "harm the printer", your print is another story but all printing too fast does is increase the risk of lost steps and makes ringing and other factors more pronounced. Again, the printer can literally crash into the side and make one heck of a noise, and do so for hours at a time, it will not damage the motors, it will not skip the belts, it's just annoying and loud. Your print may or may not get the result you wanted.

#2 Firmware ultimately controls how fast any motion is. The answer is complex but basically, segment length combined with acceleration values and limits defines the actual motion speed. The feed rate in a line of gcode is like a speed limit sign. It is both the limit (maximum speed to not exceed) and desired speed (you should drive near the speed limit when conditions allow it). Again, the motion planner in firmware ultimately drives the pulses to the stepper driver, and the stepper motor blindly follows them (to the best of it's ability). Probably best to read this and really get into the nuts and bolts here. http://3digitalcooks.com/2014/12/marlin-planner-101/

Let's just cut to the chase here.
Say you take a 20mm test cube, and you set a feedrate of 200mm/s in your slicer for the various aspects of the layer. Examples are base layers, perimeter, infill, support, and dozens of other functions of any layer can be assigned a specific feedrate. But lets again, say you just decided to go for it and put 200mm/s for everything. The first answer is- on a 20mm straight line segment, you will NEVER do 200mm/s. I don't care what you set the feedrate to, it could be 1k mm/s and it's not happening. This is because the segment is a dead start and stop at the ends (a 90 degree angle to the next segment) and it's so short in mm, when you subtract at both end the distance required to accelerate to the max rate before the end distance is required to decelerate, the 2 meet and you are simply accelerating and decelerating and never actually hitting the feedrate.

If you really want to see how fast your printer can go, you need to print a single wall object that is massive straight lines across the bed. A giant cube is the best way. If you do a curved object, then segment size and other factors kick in masking the number you want to see.

Again, in terms of raw speed:
Acceleration is not what many think it is. It does not increase the speed. If anything, it subtracts from the feed rate. The idea is that it subtracts in the places when needed because you set a feedrate your printer cannot actually do without skipping steps. So acceleration subtracts and holds your printer to values it can actually do in real life.

Jerk is the speed in which NO acceleration is applied (assumes instantaneous speed change- AKA infinite acceleration). Default is 12/mms Lowering this value (say 10 or 8mm/s) enforces acceleration and thus reduces ringing and chance of skipped steps. Since acceleration subtracts overall from feedrate value- this means lowering this further lowers the overall "average" rate of the print.

Acceleration rate: The rate subtracted from the desired feedrate at the start and end of the segment to prevent the stepper motor from skipping steps. Higher values increase the risk of skipped steps. Slower values mean acceleration subtracts a longer distance from the total segment distance.

max feedrate- a total joke because unless you print huge straight lines, you will never hit this value. It's so high it's never invoked.

Jetguy
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby Jetguy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:59 pm

I'm not trying to take anything away from Zemlin's answer and I know mine did not give examples (mainly because I push print quality and speed is just not something I am testing).

The issue is, that unless a specific object example STL is looked at for maximum straight line length, the difference between 50, 60, or 80mm/s on common printing is not as huge as the value implies. I'm be impressed it if ever hit really 80mm/s. If you look at the video example, the shape of that object is curves everywhere. Curves are made of individual polygon like segments. Therefore, with not a single one being anywhere near anything long enough to hit the speed for any length of time. Again, I'm not denying the setting, I'm simply explaining the fact of what the value means. Yes, faster values do move on average faster, but it's not a linear relationship. It's also part specific. 80 and 90mm/s setting on that exact STL may work. If you then print the object I'm describing that is a straight line maxing out the XY build area, then all bets are off. The same high speed settings that work on one print may actually hit real world limits and absolutely fail on a print that actually achieves the set speed.

And so that is the problem.
I can give you examples of test print and crank up the feedrate in slicing.
At some point, it simply does not print any faster. That point is unique to that print shape.

And, you clan play with firmware settings.
Now we have the latest Raise 3D touch panel app update, it does allow for easy changing of values (acceleration and jerk values).

Again, all I'm getting is that directly comparing numbers may not give you a full understanding. Right here, we have an example of 90mm/s. I have no doubt that value works on that print- we have video proof. That said, loading a different STL file with the same settings could result in insanely different results. That exact same setting that works for one print may not work for all prints. It's also extremely deceptive because again, if you think of it as a speed limit- it says nothing for what the printer was actually doing. You simply raised the limit. Think of the printer as a safe driver and limited by the car and engine and brakes, the print file is the road or map and feed rate is the speed limit on any given road segment.

zemlin
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby zemlin » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:05 pm

Jetguy wrote:Right here, we have an example of 90mm/s. I have no doubt that value works on that print- we have video proof. That said, loading a different STL file with the same settings could result in insanely different results. That exact same setting that works for one print may not work for all prints.
I agree entirely with the points you've brought up. I designed this part with large sweeping curves and no sharp corners specifically so I could run it with a higher print speed. A part with lots of small detail would not turn out well.

DS2017
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby DS2017 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:59 pm

I printed a curvy vase in vase mode at 120mm/s with +25 to +30 higher temp
It came out nice but it was very fragile.
Maybe with a 0.6 and higher nozzle it'd be nice.

Vice Chief
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby Vice Chief » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:33 pm

I print a lot of very large parts, so I've tried to push speed in ways similar to zemlin. The main thing that I've noticed is that over 60mm/s in any material, the prints become noticeably more fragile. Printing slower than 60mm/s definitely improves strength for me.

zemlin
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby zemlin » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:08 am

Vice Chief wrote:The main thing that I've noticed is that over 60mm/s in any material, the prints become noticeably more fragile

I cannot print Hatchbox PETG over 60mm/s without losing part strength, but eSun is doing well at 80mm/s, so it may be worth testing similar filaments from different manufacturers.

NewbPilot
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby NewbPilot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:28 pm

Vice Chief wrote:I print a lot of very large parts, so I've tried to push speed in ways similar to zemlin. The main thing that I've noticed is that over 60mm/s in any material, the prints become noticeably more fragile. Printing slower than 60mm/s definitely improves strength for me.


Speed isnt why the part was fragile. The nozzle size is. I've been doing a LOT of vase mode printing. I bought a 0.8mm nozzle from the R3D shop for this purpose. the exact same print with the exact same settings using a 0.4mm nozzle is flimsy while the 0.8mm is nice and robust. I use them as candy dishes, sugar packet holders and the like at the office :)

zemlin
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby zemlin » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:34 pm

NewbPilot wrote:Speed isnt why the part was fragile. The nozzle size is. I've been doing a LOT of vase mode printing. I bought a 0.8mm nozzle from the R3D shop for this purpose. the exact same print with the exact same settings using a 0.4mm nozzle is flimsy while the 0.8mm is nice and robust. I use them as candy dishes, sugar packet holders and the like at the office :)
Yep - been there. I made a large vase-mode print just for show. Ran it with a 1mm nozzle and a 1.2mm extrusion width. Turned out great, but did have to dial the speed WAY down just to give the plastic time to heat up when pushing that kind of volume through the hot-end.

NewbPilot
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby NewbPilot » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:45 pm

zemlin wrote:
NewbPilot wrote:Speed isnt why the part was fragile. The nozzle size is. I've been doing a LOT of vase mode printing. I bought a 0.8mm nozzle from the R3D shop for this purpose. the exact same print with the exact same settings using a 0.4mm nozzle is flimsy while the 0.8mm is nice and robust. I use them as candy dishes, sugar packet holders and the like at the office :)
Yep - been there. I made a large vase-mode print just for show. Ran it with a 1mm nozzle and a 1.2mm extrusion width. Turned out great, but did have to dial the speed WAY down just to give the plastic time to heat up when pushing that kind of volume through the hot-end.


Where did you get a 1.0 and 1.2mm nozzle for the R3D? I have the 0.8mm from their online store - but couldnt find larger. I want a 1.0 and 1.2 for sure :)

zemlin
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Re: How fast Do you print? And how fast Can one print?

Postby zemlin » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:00 pm

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XH ... UTF8&psc=1
These are shorter than the R3D nozzles, but they've been working fine. I bought a few sets.
I don't have a 1.2mm nozzle, but i printed with a 1.2mm extrusion width using the 1mm nozzle.


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