PETG Settings

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Raess
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PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:02 pm

I have tried the entire day now the get PTEG to stick hard on buildtak without success.

364002B7-41DB-44C9-A115-FCE5CD2C78F6.jpeg


My last settings is
Z offset -0.150 (BLTouch)
235C
80C bed
0.25 layers layers
First layers speed 15ms

With this I get a quite nice first layer but it want simply stick hard enough.

The primeselect PTEG ratings is 195-235C and heatbed 40-60C

Does anyone have some advice on this?
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Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:41 pm

Maybe a different build plate ?

I.e. i wanted to try printing PA12 Nylon. I read it should work with the BuildTak, but i had no luck. Garolite should work fine they said, but i couldn't get it at the time.

So, i walked into the next hardware store and looked out for something to print on. I came out with 3mm fiber board, basically the back plate of every other furniture you can buy and gave it try. Applied glue stick and printed away ....

Bed adhesion is great, even too much, i had to use a spatula more extensive i would have liked ... i was stunned ... printed with a Raft and was one happy camper.

In the meanwhile the garolite came in, but haven't had the chance to try it out. Other things come first and the Dry Box is waiting to be finished before the whole setup goes online.

Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:45 pm

Raess wrote:...
My last settings is
Z offset -0.150 (BLTouch)
..



Does Z- 0.150 mean you're printing at an absolute distance of standard 0.2-0.15 = 0.05 mm between nozzle and build plate ?

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:01 pm

I am using the Z-offset for gap between probe and nozzle. I am now trying to print with raft and it seems to stick. Same settings as before. Strange. I

I have a lokbuild laying around at home, maybe I will try that.
What is garolite? never heard of it.
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Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:12 pm

So, you actual distance between nozzle and surface is 0,15 mm ? Sounds a bit close for me, but if you can make it happen with a Raft, hey, whatever it takes ...


Garolite is the the "go-to" surface for Nylon. Markforged uses this as standard print surface and it obviously works. Garolite is the commonly used name in US, the actual name of the beast is Whale, coming from Tufnol. It's a phenolic bound cotton fabric. Available in 0,4mm, 2mm and thicker sizes at your thrusted industrial outfitter.

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:25 pm

No its the actual distance between probe and nozzle. I think the actual distance is around 0.3 mm only estimated with the 0.2 mm blade ;)

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Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:38 pm

As is read in another the other day, Ideamaker uses Z 0,5 mm for the first layer of the Raft.

One could come to the conclusion, if your print doesn't hold with 0,3, but the Raft (if you use Ideamaker) sticks at 0,5mm, you're raftless print starts too close ...

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:48 pm

I think the first two layers of Raft should be 0.5mm. First layer equal 0.25mm :?:
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Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:53 pm


Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 pm

hehe. Vicky told me this a while ago:

Re: Z offset
by Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:18 am

In my opinion, the nozzle distance is still a little too close.
The layer height of first two layers of Raft should be 0.5mm, the third interface layer should be 0.38mm, the next two surface layers shoould be 0.22mm.
But the first two layers of Raft should thinner than the upper layers of Raft. Which means the nozzle was too close to the board cause not enough space to place the first and second layers of Raft.
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Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:07 am

The Raft seems to stick good enough at a first glance, but after a few layers its lifting in the corner.
IMG_1789.jpg


So I removed the buildplate and started cleaning and resurfacing it with a piece of 200 sandpaper to remove the some leftovers from previous prints. I finish the resurfacing with some 70% alcohol.

Did another print and are happy with the part. Except it want stick :(
IMG_1791.jpg

IMG_1792.jpg



I think I will Order a PEI sheet instead and see how that works.
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zemlin
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby zemlin » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:48 am

I use 3M 468MP Adhesive Transfer Tape, 12" squares from Amazon to stick my PEI to the build plate. I use an aluminum plate, but the glass should work fine. I use a 3M 71601 Blue Plastic Squeegee to help lay the adhesive down. These also work great for applying Kapton to glass.

Getting the sheet down without bubbles can be a challenge, but with some practice it can be done. I put the adhesive sheet on the glass first. I pull back the first release paper a few inches from one corner. I place the sheet on the CLEAN build plate and wipe across the exposed adhesive with the plastic squeegee working out about 10mm with each pass. I slowly peel back the release paper as I work my way across the platform until the entire sheet is down. When you're done you can check for bubbles. If you have any, slice through them with a razor blade and squeegee across them to eliminate them before removing the top release paper.

It's a similar process to lay the PEI down on the adhesive sheet. The plastic will have some natural curl to it. I find it works best to apply it so the edges of the sheet curl down. The center will bond the best anyway. The curl of the material helps the edges stay down.

Peel back the corner of the release paper. I use .06" 1.5mm PEI, so it's pretty rigid. I have to pull back about half-way across the platform before laying down the plastic. I do this diagonally. Carefully position the PEI and then push down on the first corner onto the adhesive. For this I wipe across the plastic sheet with a cotton rag pushing down as hard as I can. Working my way across the sheet again advancing a little with each wipe so I don't trap air. The release paper needs to be pulled a few inches ahead of the bonding point. If it gets creased between the plastic and the glass it can be very hard to pull out.

With this you should get your PEI down on the glass cleanly, and it will last for a good long time. The only caution I'd have is when printing ABS. Don't let the first layer go down TOO pressed. ABS can bond so it can be very difficult to remove and it's easy to gouge the PEI when trying to scrape the last bits with a razor blade. Softening the ABS with acetone can help prevent damage to the PEI. If you print ABS without excessive squeeze on the first layer (no flare if printing without a raft), it will pop off beautifully when done. I use 100C-105C for the bed temp on ABS. I go to 110C for PC.

I sand the surface of my PEI with 1500 grit sandpaper. I use an electric orbital sander for that. The light buff adds just a little bite. More is not better. I tried 800 once and that was too coarse.

Over time the adhesive will dry out and lose it's stick around the edges - but this will take some time. If you want to remove the PEI, stick the plate in the freezer for a couple hours. You'll be able to pop the plastic right off when it's cold. To clean off the old adhesive I put the plate in a large zip-lock bag with a little acetone and let that sit for a couple hours. Most of the goo will slide right off. If the adhesive has dried out around the edges, that will take a little scraping to get it cleaned up.

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:11 pm

Thanks zemlin for the tips on the PEI :-) I will order a new glass build plate and a PEI.

I finally got it to stick to the BuildTak. YEY!

Ones again I cleaned and resurfacing it with sandpaper. rubbed it two times T-röd Kemetyl.
I changes The Z-offset ones again to -0.18 (BLtouch)
Settings for this 3DBenchy.
Extruder: 233C
Bed Temperature: 70C
Retract amount Material Amount: 3.0mm
Layer Height: 0.25mm
First Layer Height: 0.30mm
Platform Addition: Skirt
Fill Density: 10%
Shells: 2


The result:
IMG_1803.jpg

IMG_1802.jpg

IMG_1801.jpg

IMG_1800.jpg


Some stringing and not as nice layers as before but at least it sticks hard. Any settings I can tweak to improve the result?
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Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:24 pm

Excuse my Ignorance, but why do i want to stick PEI onto glass ?

Yes, i get the fact the glass is a stable, rigid and a good flat surface to print on, but, on the other hand, i print directly on a 1mm PEI sheet sitting on the Aluminium bed. When the print is finished and i'm around, i just unclip the PEI, pull it of the bed with a short piece of Kapton i added just for this purpose and either let the part cool down sitting on the top cover or just unpop it right now and leave the part for cooling down on the top cover, if i'm not around, print cools down and i just take it off the PEI.

If you stick the PEI onto the glass, you loose some HBP temperature on the PEI (because glass acts an insulator inbetween) and you loose the ability to just bent the sheet a bit to pop off the print from the PEI. As i'm only seeing downsides here, what am i missing or doing wrong here ?

Timber Haint
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Timber Haint » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:28 pm

I have absolutely no experience with PETG so I'm just spit-balling here, but have you cleaned your build surface lately? You'd be amazed how much dust, dirt, grease and grime can accumulate over time and cause adhesion issues.

See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6467

For me... simply cleaning my build surface did wonders for adhesion. Try the glass side after cleaning (obviously clean the glass side too).

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:52 am

@Squenz I like the stability. But If it works without I maybe give it a try. Don't the glass have a better Consistent Flatness rather then the aluminum? What type of clips are you using to stick the PEI directly on the aluminum? I actually bought 2 original glass plates more. One for The PEI and for the Lokbuild. I will stick to BuildTak (White) on the third so its easy to see first layers when printing black.

@Timber Haint Yes I sanded BuildTak with a fine sandpaper (steel wool type) then I cleaned up thoroughly with Kemetyl and did the same process again. It´s now sticking quite well.

The second thing was to study the first layer. Here I clearly saw that the layers did not go well enough together. So The next thing was to adjust the Z-offset (in my case P-offset, Probe offset)

I adjusted back and forth from what has worked relatively well on my previous tests. P-offset was adjusted in the range from 0.00 to -0.150. With the different settings the stick had was quite different. My main goal here was to get the stick perfect before mowing on to other beauty adjustments and the durability of infill. In my case I found the P-offset -0.125 to be absolutely perfect, a very stick and still relatively easy to remove. So I was a happy camper.
IMG_1808.jpg



Now the next thing. Getting the perfect first layer. So, I started trying to see how the first layer lay down on the bed. I immediately saw that small details still had difficulty attaching to the build plate. So I adjusted the first layer speed down to 10mm/s and it was a winner. All strings where sticking (even minimal details).

In addition, I now examined how the layers look and how the model was looking as a whole. It was not very nice. Zits and blobs are all over the place. I also saw that filament was sticking on the nozzle and this contribution to the mess. So I set first layer flow rate down to 95% and Immediately saw less filaments stuck on the nozzle and also less mess overall.

I made temperature tower to verify the perfect temperature for the PrimaSelect PETG (rated at 195-235C on the box. I split the different sections of the temperatures zones and pulled the layers to see where is was the strongest and the weakest. In my opinion, it was strongest at 245C but the bridging was a mess. The best bridging was seen at 220C but it was a bit weak. I decided to go for 235C in the end.
IMG_1807.jpg


So now things are starting to looking better. I did a few test runs and decided to turn back the flow rate for bottom and top to 95% And was quite happy with the result.

I now checked the infill checking the strength and the looks. It it seemed a bit weak and looked a bit messy. I googled around a bit and found that the max speed should not be more then 70mm/s for PETG. I set the recommended speed of 50mm/s giving the layers time to lay down. It was now looking better and a lot felt better. the model seems solid and sustainable.

Here is the final result (some small things still left to adjust) I think I will need to check the react amount material. At least I can print now! and model is strong as hell.

IMG_1818.jpg

IMG_1816.jpg
Attachments
IMG_1812.jpg
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zemlin
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby zemlin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:51 pm

Squenz wrote:Excuse my Ignorance, but why do i want to stick PEI onto glass ?

I've always used PEI bonded to Aluminum, so I can't speak from experience, but I believe ABS would pull enough on the bed that it would not remain flat without a rigid substrate. PETG doesn't have nearly the warpage potential of ABS, so it might be fine with the PEI sheet alone.

Squenz
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Squenz » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 pm

As i said, i print on a white 1mm PEI/Aluminium Plate. Works just fine with ABS and almost everything else, never had an issue. I use the clamps as they came with the printer and similiar.

Raess
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby Raess » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:08 pm

@zemlin so If I want to swap to print different materials and not only PETG. It could be a problem?

Anyways guys. I got so frustrated over the buildtak. I removed it and replaced it with a lokbuild in the meanwhile. And it sticks perfect!!
89B9CC75-0FD3-4F4F-8C95-FE28EEB2368C.jpeg

BAE7DFFB-4916-4674-BA9F-68B92647C993.jpeg


So my toolbox will contain 3 different plates with different build plates. PEI, lokbuild and Buildtak white ;-)
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zemlin
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Re: PETG Settings

Postby zemlin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:55 am

Raess wrote:@zemlin so If I want to swap to print different materials and not only PETG. It could be a problem?

I use PEI with PETG, ABS, PC, and PLA.


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