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Cannot get a good print

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:35 pm
by kazaar13
I am new to the 3d printing world as a user. I have been reading up on it for a long time. I just recently took the plunge and bought the Raise 3d N2 printer. This was so much larger in size than expected when it showed up.

I validated my Z axis using the measure tool and it is at the correct height.

Issues I have been encountering and no matter the research online I cannot resolve all of them. I have started to print test objects only until I get a clean print as everything else I have tried has ended up in failure.

1. The raft initially would come loose and raising the temp of the bed to 50-60 solved that issue. Now I have a lot of trouble getting the printed object/raft off the print bed once the job is complete. I am using the tools that came with the printer. I even scratched my build plate earlier.

2. Prints do not come out clear. They appear lumpy/droopy and not fine.

3. Current print test has been the 3D Benchy boat.

I use the Ideamaker slicer that came with the system. I have tweaked all settings to reduce/increase speed, increase/decrease extruder temps, layer height (.2 - .06), retraction speed and amount, ZHop, and anything else I could find. I am using the PLA that shipped with the printer too.

The prints below are better than when i started, but they all have issues. Anything else outside of this comes out bad. Even something as simple as a cube.

Image of prints
IMG_0196.JPG

IMG_0192.JPG


I have dleeted my custom slicer settings as they have not been working and went back to the three default Raise 3d Hotend 2 templates. I assume that I correctly have the Hotend 2 version of this printer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really want to start deigning and printing. Also with most solutions stating to slow down the print. What is the benefit of having a printer that can print at 150mm if it is best to print at 50mm or slower?

Leo

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:29 pm
by DeftCAD
This won't cure all your issues, but re. detaching prints... I've been using 3D printers for a few years and have tried a few build surfaces. The one I've settled with is a glass bed and 3DLAC spray. I never use a raft and prints almost never lift. Adhesion with even a modest area touching the bed is so hard that on completion I think I would damage the model before it detached, but after a few minutes cooling they just let go with a satisfying 'click'.

A few thoughts:

1. It sounds like you've done your homework so I'm just asking: if you're new to it are you confident that the bed gap is right? In my experience it needs to be 'just so' with all printers - a little resistance on the feeler gauge, but not a lot. This explanation in itself is vague and hard to quantify... Make sure the feeler gauge is quite flat to the bed as you do it, or friction from the angle will mislead you.
2. Are you allowing the bed to cool before removing the model? I've seen videos of people hacking at models as soon as they finish. In my experience, cool models are harder and as the bed material and build material cool at different rates, they release better. I leave mine probably 10min or more.
3. What sort of environment is the printer in? Ambient temperature? Are the doors open/lid off? I usually run closed doors and the top propped up using a 30cm ruler BUT I'm in the UK, so ambient is almost always <20°c and the printer is in a corner right next to two external walls and a window!
4. Make just one change at a time. I know this is laborious and time consuming, but it's the best way to fault find. On this note, I don't think Benchy is a good model to fault find with: I used to use it, but it takes hours to complete and the more testing features only appear higher up, so you wait ages to see results. See if you can download/model something with features that show lower down to speed up your testing.

Hopefully this is of some help. I don't have a fraction of the tech. knowledge that some of the others on here do, so perhaps others will have more suggestions.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:53 pm
by kazaar13
I usually let the print stay for awhile before trying to get it off the plate. I have tried between immediate at completion through an hour or two. It just seems like the prints end up getting glued to the bed and are very difficult to pry off.

1. I believe the GAP is good. I read the instructions and forums online to find the little tool they give should have a small amount of resistance from the bed. I adjusted the Z axis screw and homed the Z axis multiple times. I placed the tool on the bed and pushed it horizontally beneath the nozzle and there is some resistance as I can feel it against the tool. I wondered what the little thing was for when I unpacked it. I might have it to close and can try increasing the GAP a screw turn and see if that helps.

2. I have tried immediately and also have waited various amounts of time before attempting to remove the model. Minutes to even hours without much difference. Though I have noticed the models are much more sold the longer I wait.

3. My printer is against an outside wall and upstairs. I sit in here comfortably and do not have central heating or air. I just have a small electric heater in the room to take the chill out if it gets cold. The printer itself is contained on all sides and top. I read that heating/cooling issues can make prints fail, so I have left the doors shut and also the top lid on the printer. Should I remove the top cover? That is one thing I have not tried in all the changes.

4. I have been making one change at a time and then printing again. I have done this so many times I think I might be missing something and have now started reaching out for assistance. I have set everything back to default in my software and hardware. That way I have a level starting point again. I have tried multiple test objects. I have also tried a small cube that has 3 small holes that travel the length of the cube. I prints much faster than benchy yet it also has issues with the circle portion that goes through the cube. I have tried the do not cross gaps and all kinds of settings with retractions to make them smooth and round.

I have also tried a bridge test that has two small towers and a non-supported bridge that runs between them. The bridge and towers complete. The bridge on the underside is extremely stringy and not a solid piece as depicted in other final results.

Thank you for your information. I will check my Z GAP and also try removing the lid to see if that helps.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:09 pm
by Timber Haint
1) I've found the best settings that work for me with the Raise3d premium PLA (R3DPPLA) are a nozzle of 210 deg. and a bed of 70 deg.. These are the only settings I change on the V2 hotend PLA setting in ideaMaker. When I use these settings with the R3D Prem. PLA I have no issues with prints coming loose and it still gives me good print quality.

Clean your build surface. I'm going to make a post about it later, but go to your local grocery/hardware store and get some AJAX or Comet and give your build surfaces a good cleaning (both the glass and the buildtak) and thorough rinsing. I thoroughly dry it off, put it back in the machine, and let it sit at 100 deg. for about 5 minutes to burn off any residual water. Dust and any extraneous particles will vastly effect your filaments ability to stick. Next to sand/bead blasting (which we're not going to do) it's the best way to clean a surface. It's better than isopropyl alcohol, de-greaser, or acetone. The grit and chemical reaction do an amazing job of cleaning surfaces. This has been proven many times and can be verified by the water sheeting test. You'd be amazed how well filament sticks to a clean glass surface. I will make a new post about this later.

As for removing your prints - as DeftCAD mentioned, letting it completely cool is probably the best way and my prints always come off easily if I let it cool. I don't use the tool that came with the machine. I damaged my buildtak with it and have since switched to a much thinner "putty knife" (it's not a knife). I place it as perpendicular to the bed surface as possible with the edge as close to the intersection of the bed and the piece. I then LIGHTLY tap the back of the putty knife it with a hammer and it pops the piece right off with no damage to the build surface OR the piece. I can post pictures about this tonight if you'd like.

2) For me the R3DPPLA seems to have a little more issues with overhangs than say the Hatchbox PLA. My Hatchbox PLA completely amazes me at it's ability to create overhangs. You can see some in my previous posts. I'd suggest spending a little money and getting some Hatchbox PLA (the green is the only one I've used so far). I'm sure there are some other brands that are just as good, but this one works very well for me.

3) Never printed the benchy boat, but maybe I'll give it a try.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 am
by zemlin
On top of all the above comments, have patience. I've been at this for 2 years now and I'm still getting better with every step. It's not a plug-n-play process, and it will take time for you to figure out what works best for you.

Also, regarding speed - everything is a trade-off. I sometimes print fast when getting the plastic down is more important than making it pretty - but generally I care about appearance and integrity, so I print slower. My car is capable of hitting 125 MPH (so I've been told). That's not the optimal speed for most of my driving.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:55 am
by kazaar13
Timber Haint wrote:1) I've found the best settings that work for me with the Raise3d premium PLA (R3DPPLA) are a nozzle of 210 deg. and a bed of 70 deg.. These are the only settings I change on the V2 hotend PLA setting in ideaMaker. When I use these settings with the R3D Prem. PLA I have no issues with prints coming loose and it still gives me good print quality.

Clean your build surface. I'm going to make a post about it later, but go to your local grocery/hardware store and get some AJAX or Comet and give your build surfaces a good cleaning (both the glass and the buildtak) and thorough rinsing. I thoroughly dry it off, put it back in the machine, and let it sit at 100 deg. for about 5 minutes to burn off any residual water. Dust and any extraneous particles will vastly effect your filaments ability to stick. Next to sand/bead blasting (which we're not going to do) it's the best way to clean a surface. It's better than isopropyl alcohol, de-greaser, or acetone. The grit and chemical reaction do an amazing job of cleaning surfaces. This has been proven many times and can be verified by the water sheeting test. You'd be amazed how well filament sticks to a clean glass surface. I will make a new post about this later.

As for removing your prints - as DeftCAD mentioned, letting it completely cool is probably the best way and my prints always come off easily if I let it cool. I don't use the tool that came with the machine. I damaged my buildtak with it and have since switched to a much thinner "putty knife" (it's not a knife). I place it as perpendicular to the bed surface as possible with the edge as close to the intersection of the bed and the piece. I then LIGHTLY tap the back of the putty knife it with a hammer and it pops the piece right off with no damage to the build surface OR the piece. I can post pictures about this tonight if you'd like.

2) For me the R3DPPLA seems to have a little more issues with overhangs than say the Hatchbox PLA. My Hatchbox PLA completely amazes me at it's ability to create overhangs. You can see some in my previous posts. I'd suggest spending a little money and getting some Hatchbox PLA (the green is the only one I've used so far). I'm sure there are some other brands that are just as good, but this one works very well for me.

3) Never printed the benchy boat, but maybe I'll give it a try.


Thank you for the response. I have been out of town for a couple weeks and will try this when I get home. The printer isn’t exactly portable. Lol

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:58 am
by kazaar13
zemlin wrote:On top of all the above comments, have patience. I've been at this for 2 years now and I'm still getting better with every step. It's not a plug-n-play process, and it will take time for you to figure out what works best for you.

Also, regarding speed - everything is a trade-off. I sometimes print fast when getting the plastic down is more important than making it pretty - but generally I care about appearance and integrity, so I print slower. My car is capable of hitting 125 MPH (so I've been told). That's not the optimal speed for most of my driving.



So true. I have been working on this for weeks with no success on easy or difficult prints. Trying to dial it in closer on a 1-4 hour print before trying anymore 10+ hour prints. Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:42 am
by zemlin
kazaar13 wrote:Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

If your parts are less than 25mm wide you might be able to run both barrels at the same time creating duplicate parts. I've never tried that. You need to get good at running a single nozzle first though. There are printers that have each extruder on an independent drive which allows them to print two parts at the same time.

Once you get a handle on the process you can take steps to speed it up in areas that are less critical. I got my first RAISE printer in October and just picked up a second. I have modified them both with the lighter weight Bondtech extruder, different stepper drivers, and dampers on the XY steppers. All these mods are to allow me to push the speeds and accelerations up. I didn't have a lot of time to mess with that on the first printer because it was busy printing most of the time. Now with a second printer I have more freedom to test when the workload is a little lower. Last week I was able to tweak perimeter, infill, and support acceleration/jerk settings and cut 7 hours out of a 32 hour print while improving the final part appearance. My next step will be to push the print speed up from 60 mm/s to maybe 75 or 90 mm/s and then dial down the perimeter acceleration and jerk settings to maintain the surface finish. If I'm successful, this should give another reduction in print time.

It all takes time to learn ... one step at a time.

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:17 pm
by kazaar13
zemlin wrote:
kazaar13 wrote:Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

If your parts are less than 25mm wide you might be able to run both barrels at the same time creating duplicate parts. I've never tried that. You need to get good at running a single nozzle first though. There are printers that have each extruder on an independent drive which allows them to print two parts at the same time.

Once you get a handle on the process you can take steps to speed it up in areas that are less critical. I got my first RAISE printer in October and just picked up a second. I have modified them both with the lighter weight Bondtech extruder, different stepper drivers, and dampers on the XY steppers. All these mods are to allow me to push the speeds and accelerations up. I didn't have a lot of time to mess with that on the first printer because it was busy printing most of the time. Now with a second printer I have more freedom to test when the workload is a little lower. Last week I was able to tweak perimeter, infill, and support acceleration/jerk settings and cut 7 hours out of a 32 hour print while improving the final part appearance. My next step will be to push the print speed up from 60 mm/s to maybe 75 or 90 mm/s and then dial down the perimeter acceleration and jerk settings to maintain the surface finish. If I'm successful, this should give another reduction in print time.

It all takes time to learn ... one step at a time.


What are your printer settings for single nozzle? I tried so many with some being much worse, but very few changes improved the prints. When I get home I am going to try the couple of changes mentioned above. The slightly lower nozzle temp is the one change that had a positive change. I had increased bed temp in small jumps but have not tried 70.

I sm just hoping their isn’t a hardware defect giving me the printer grief.

I tried a small bridge test piece and the towers look good and the circle on top is good. The bridge itself was very stringy on the bottom/

Re: Cannot get a good print

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:09 pm
by zemlin
kazaar13 wrote:What are your printer settings for single nozzle? I tried so many with some being much worse, but very few changes improved the prints. When I get home I am going to try the couple of changes mentioned above. The slightly lower nozzle temp is the one change that had a positive change. I had increased bed temp in small jumps but have not tried 70.

I sm just hoping their isn’t a hardware defect giving me the printer grief.

I tried a small bridge test piece and the towers look good and the circle on top is good. The bridge itself was very stringy on the bottom/

I don't print PLA and I don't use IdeaMaker, so not sure my info would do you much good.
Bridging can be tricky - stringy underside is common. I normally use support rather than bridging any significant distance.