Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

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Tinkerer
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Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:01 am

Hi All!

I tried to load PolyMaker PolyFlex into my stock Raise3D N2.
No success.
During the load procedure the filament got stuck in the feeder.
The feeder motor then just jerked without being able to transport the filament - nor forward nor reverse.
I had to take off the acrylic plate from the feeder and luckily could then extract the filament again.

Question:
Has anybody been successful in printing with PolyFlex on a standard N2?
What's the trick?
Or does it require a Bondtech-Extruder-Kit?

Best regtards & enjoy your weekend!

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:26 am

We have tested PolyFlex on our standard machine before so that ideaMaker has printing profiles for PolyFlex by origin.
Does the "jerk" you mentioned when loading mean that the feeding gear jumping backward when feeding the filament into the nozzle?
If now, switch back to premium PLA, does it have the same loading problem?
What temperature did you set for feeding PolyFlex?

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:20 am

Hi Vicky,

I have indeed used the Profile from Raise3D for PolyFlex.
By "jerk" I mean that the feeding gear turns forth and back rapidly, making a rattling noise.

No problem with the raise3d provided PLA, that works fine.
Temperature while loading was 215°C.
Please see attached picture - the problem was above the feeding gear,
where the filament got stuck/bent.

IMG_3736.JPG

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:03 pm

You are using the right nozzle to load PolyFlex? Or the same left nozzle for testing PLA and PolyFlex?
Would recommend you to increase the loading temperature for PolyFlex from 215 to 230.

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:55 pm

Yes, I used the right on for the polyflex.

Okay, will try @230°C and report back.

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:08 pm

Vicky,
you made my day!
At 230°C it loads like a dream;-)

First test print is running - thank you!

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 pm

So here's the result - at 230°C the PolyFlex seems to work quite well.

But:
Looking at the printed cube I recognized some sort of "echo":
echo_in_print.jpg


Look at the right side of the "X" (which is in fact just 0,1mm in depth).
You can see that the "X" ist sort of repeated.

This is not related to the material, because I did take a closer look to the other cubes I did already print with PLA.
When using 0,1mm precision, this effect can also be seen in PLA-prints.
As well in ABS. Weird.

What can be the reason? Some mechanical instability?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:38 am

Such kind of echo is hard to totally avoid.
Normally it happens around the direction change points, which is due to speed suddenly changes at those points.
If you drop the speed to really low, it can improve the result since it will have no such big acceleration any more.
But if it doesn't brother so much, we will recommend just using the default setting speed.

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:25 pm

Hello again!

Just to be shure...: so you say this is "works as designed"?

By the way, the matter did not significantly change since I installed the bondtech dua lextruder kit.
Others did - the surfaces are visibly smoother now!

Jetguy
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Jetguy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:38 am

What can be the reason? Some mechanical instability?


Ringing is flexing the rods due to dynamic acceleration.
You have a dual extruder N2 or N2 Plus right?
That model (N2 series VS N1) has the longest XY rods in the XY mechanism and the heaviest extruder head assembly being a dual.
As such, the faster you change directions (example is corners or embossed text in the middle of a straight wall) the greater the mass of the moving head wants to follow basic rules of motion (in motion wants to stay in motion and rest wants to stay at rest). Since steel can deflect and spring back- this and every other 3D printer on the planet using round rods is subject to the same dynamics.
Again, this is not just Raise 3D printers, but just about any 3D printer that uses round rods as part of the construction.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=299&p=2788&hilit=acceleration#p2788
The 3D printing community was looking at ringing as far back as before 2011.
Ringing.jpg

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8870


So what is the answer? Tune down the acceleration values used by the firmware and also consider the order and speed perimeters are printed at. One potential way is discussed in this thread and also shows you the default values from the source code of the firmware. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1099&hilit=acceleration

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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Jetguy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 am

You should also ensure your LCD has the latest firmware. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1652&p=13897&hilit=raisepack#p13896

I say that, because the latest firmware added features to allow easier tuning through the LCD menu system VS having to add custom gcode to the print files or starting codes in the profile in ideamaker.
Home screen.jpg

More Settings.jpg

Select hardware.jpg

Firmware settings.jpg

Jerk Settings.jpg

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:47 am

Hello again!

Thanks for the infos/details.
After learning that "my" cube-echo-problem looks even worse on other printers
I understand this is as good as it gets with this type of construction...

Tuning acceleration etc. sound promising, yes.

I have already recognized the new settings after the update (already installed).
I think I'll give it a try and see how things go with lower values for jerk and acceleration.

Btw. - just an idea, but I think it would be possible to implement some counter measures within the slicer SW.
It should be not too hard to calculate the dynamics of the print while slicing so one could then create gcode lowering
the acceleration for critical areas? If it is possible to change that in the middle of a print as far as the hardware/firmware
is concerned?

Jetguy
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Jetguy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:04 pm

I know you are fully intending to help and a fresh set of eyes and ideas is generally good.
The problem is, you don't yet fully understand the system we have in front of us, you don't have the history and the other known list of things being worked on.

As such, many of you new users are quick to jump on new features and software requests.
So here lies the problem- this takes away from other long ago implicated required fixes dealing with hardware and firmware.
What I'm saying is, this is a 3D printer hardware company. You bought a printer and got a free slicer software.
Holding Raise 3D to fix things involving firmware and long promised firmware and hardware features should take priority over wish list features in the slicer. Not trying to offend you, just give you perspective on the angle I'm coming from. I've taken significant amounts of my time to reverse engineer many technical aspects of this printer and share with the group. For most every problem, I try to provide at least one, maybe even two or three alternate solutions to some of these problems. But there are some that Raise 3D must address.
Until that happens, my personal opinion is that wish list stuff in comparison - it goes to a list that maybe, maybe, if they get to it after everything else- then prioritize that list and move on. Most of my goals revolve around making the printer even more reliable, and more importantly, safer than stock. The printer prints well and absolutely, we all want to make it as cutting edge as possible, but there should also be an understanding of the system that exists, what practical limits and features exist. Again, the manuals could be improved for beginners, the firmware for the motion controller has a long overdue update, we have a couple of pressing hardware issues recently explored and brought to light, and all of those should be top #1 priority over wish list features.
Last edited by Jetguy on Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Jetguy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:24 pm

And sorry, I didn't mean to not answer your question.

In general, no, we don't have slicers go and modify acceleration on the fly.
It's not that it's impossible, it's just generally thought of as making things more complicated for limited benefit.

You simply tune the printer for the best compromise.
Default was set to an acceptable rate such that printing times are reduced but some minimal artifacts or defects exist that are acceptable to the vast majority of users needs.
Some users may want a higher standard of quality than stock. This can be achieved with hardware upgrades, careful tuning, and above all, a tradeoff in most cases of speed and thus print time VS final finish quality.

Same reason you generally don't print every print at 0.1mm layer height. Lower layer height means more layers for a given object final height, each layer takes time, if you both slow down the overall speed and do more layers- print time jumps up quite high.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:34 am

Tinkerer wrote:Btw. - just an idea, but I think it would be possible to implement some counter measures within the slicer SW.
It should be not too hard to calculate the dynamics of the print while slicing so one could then create gcode lowering
the acceleration for critical areas? If it is possible to change that in the middle of a print as far as the hardware/firmware
is concerned?


It's a good suggestion. I will take notes.
But it may need lots of testing results to get the perfect setting for every filament which needs lot of time to achieve.

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:04 am

Hi Jetguy,

on the page you referenced I can only see the current settings but not change them.

Is there a way to enable changing those values?

Jetguy wrote:You should also ensure your LCD has the latest firmware. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1652&p=13897&hilit=raisepack#p13896

I say that, because the latest firmware added features to allow easier tuning through the LCD menu system VS having to add custom gcode to the print files or starting codes in the profile in ideamaker.

Jerk Settings.jpg

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:38 am

Hi Jetguy,

reg. your post:
Jetguy wrote:I know you are fully intending to help and a fresh set of eyes and ideas is generally good.
The problem is, you don't yet fully understand the system we have in front of us, you don't have the history and the other known list of things being worked on.
...

My point of view is:
It is up to Raise3d to prioritize what they want to improve in their product.
In general I would think it is valuable for a manufacturer to get direct feedback from customers.

I have been in a team building a 3-axis milling machine back in the 90's.
We did put in quite some efforts to get around mechanical limits.
For instance I did implement a SW to measure the movement errors of the X-/Y-Axis
and to compensate for that during operation.

Why did we do that?

Customers told us about movement errors depending on where the milling took place on the machine.
The errors where within the specs of the machine.
So we could have said "it's okay" and do nothing.

But our intend was to become a leader in our segment of machines (raise the standard would have been a fine motto for us, as well;-).
Our priorities were easy:
1 - is it safety-relevant -> DO it NOW
2 - will this set us apart from the competition -> DO it NEXT

So I would never ever tell a customer to not "complain" because he's new at this and he does not know the history.
(anyway, nobody complained in this case;-)

What I certainly agree with is that an improvement of the dynamic behavior of the machine should not be made
inside the slicer. As you said, ideamaker is also available as free download (mine came with the printer so belongs to the product, but that's a different story).
This improvement should be rather implemented in the printer itself!

It is a well proven design principle to build your machine according to the physical limits.
The obvious fact that within the 3D-Printer-Industry everybody is building machines which are running close or even outside their physical limits would - for me - not mean that "my" construction is a "me too". But that might be something different.

If we can agree to continue to discuss very openly areas of improvement and
if that would help Raise3D just a little bit to "raise the standard" - I would like that.

BR
Tinkerer (aka Mat)

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Steven.W
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Steven.W » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Our priorities were easy:
1 - is it safety-relevant -> DO it NOW
2 - will this set us apart from the competition -> DO it NEXT


Great way to put it! As always, we love all the input Jetguy, you're invaluable. One thing we like to express here is that we LOVE feedback in all forms. If it's been said before, that's fine. If it's a "small" improvement, that's fine too! Of course we'll be addressing the more serious issues first, but we're always expanding our list of things for R&D to look at. On all sides thanks for the input guys!
Steven Whalen
Raise3D

ABH
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby ABH » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:20 am

Well, it's good that Raise3D is taking notes, but it will not be possible for a slicer SW to mitigate ringing, the reason being that the slicer has no idea of the phase of the oscillations, i.e. the position of the ringing. The slicer and the motion controller can limit acceleration, as is already done today, but that is about what can be done.

This type of ringing that you see in Raise3D printers and other printers I have looked at, originates from oscillation in the stepper motor itself. It can possibly be amplified by the rest of the mechanical system though. If you look closer at the pitch of the ringing lines, then it is always 0.8 mm which maps to the physical angle between the magnetic poles in the stepper motor. I.e. when a rotor pole moves from one stator pole to the next, the printer head moves 0.8 mm. The stepper motor rotor is "suspended" in the magnetic field of the stator and is a damped resonant system like a mass on a spring. The motor torque is zero when the stator and rotor poles are right opposite each other and the torque is maximum when the rotor pole is right between two stator poles. If you look closer at the vertical surface of a printed part you will see faint vertical stripes with the 0.8 mm pitch. This originates from the uneven speed of the printer head caused by the varying torque of the stepper motor when the rotor passes the stator pole. When there is a sudden change in motor load, i.e. there is strong acceleration/deceleration, the rotor is "disturbed" in the magnetic field generated by the stator and you will see a damped oscillation in the rotor position.

If you want to compensate for this kind of ringing then you need to do it at stepper motor driver level. It could be a task for Trinamic, which developed and manufacture the excellent TMC2100 driver we are using in these printers. The slicer and motion controller, for that sake, simply doesn't have the necessary spatial information that allows for mitigating ringing. Only the driver IC knows where the microsteps are relative to the full steps and again relative to the physical rotor position.
Last edited by ABH on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tinkerer
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Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:15 pm

ABH...
I see you have been thinking about this issue.
But I would like to point out that Cura does have some settings to cope with this issue...
I have not checked (yet) whether these settings help but I will when I find the time.

And just a first thought - if 0,8mm is the minimal step ... how can it be that 3D-Printers have better resolution than that in X, Y, and Z?


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