Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Share your successful printing settings with others here. If you have any question about the parameters or printing skills of some filament, please find here.
ABH
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:31 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby ABH » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:42 am

0.8 mm is not the minimal step, it is the x/y distance corresponding to the angle between two motor poles.
Imagine a rotor pole "suspended" in the magnetic field from two stator poles. The rotor will position itself in this magnetic field according to the current applied to the electric coils of the two stator poles. If the current ratio is 1, then the rotor will position itself right in the middle of the two stator poles. If there is only current in one of the two stator poles, then the rotor pole will position itself right in front of this stator pole. This is a simplified description, in a real motor you also reverse the current in the electric coils.
Traditionally you are talking about full-step control of a stepper motor. Full step control divides the angle between the poles by 4. If the angular distance between the poles corresponds to an x or y distance of 0.8 mm, then the full-step angle corresponds to an x or y distance of 0.2 mm. The stepper motor driver is configured to use 1/16 micro-stepping. That means that you further divide the full-steps into 16 micro-steps. One microstep is 0.2mm/16 = 12.5 µm, which is the x/y resolution the printers use. 12.5 µm corresponds to 80 microsteps per mm, which is the actual constant defined in Marlin SW. So, you can say, by changing the electric current ratio in the stepper motor a little bit, you can move the printer head by one micro-step = 12.5 µm (in theory :-)
The motion controller just commands the stepper motor controller to forward or reverse a number of micro-steps. That is all it can do. The motion controller thus has no knowledge of where these microsteps are relative to the motor pole positions.
I don't know about this feature in Cura, but I guess it must do some tricks with acceleration control on a higher level.

MDVolle
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby MDVolle » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:14 pm

Just chiming in on the ringing issue - I do believe that the primary mechanism in the artifacts we are seeing is the stepper poles - a complicated issue that also affects astronomy applications using steppers (which results in telescope or camera vibration and a loss of resolution when imaging). I have drives micro-steping in the 2,000+ steps/step range and there are still non-linearities - even with five phase systems.

Unfortunately EVERYTHING is connected and related - the stepper coupler, the timing belts, the stiction in the guide rails (even the lubricant you use on the rails).

I know from experience with the telescopes that just "stiffening everything up" may in fact make the artifacts much worse before you find a magic combination of absorbing the non-linearities and jerk of the steppers.

Jumping to a servo motor control system would possibly make a large improvement but would we still like our machines as much if the price increased by $2,500 as well? How about by $5,000?

Servos require encoders - no alternative - and those encoders then determine the limit of the machine accuracy - and you get exactly what you pay for - $25 encoder - $25 results - $2,500 encoder - $2,500 results - IF everything else in the whole machine is capable of resolving the precision of the encoder - so its just a new set of compromises (and some of us telescope guys raise the stakes quite high).

There would STILL be ringing potential in the system, just not stepper pole ringing - so even that isn't a silver bullet.

I still feel like the N2 Plus is a really nice set of compromises - I'm a little afraid to change anything because the factory team landed on a really nice combination - you can do a LOT worse.

Most of these issues have been really throughly explored in CNC machine design - even in laser marking and engraving/cutting - the topics aren't new - nor are the compromises - the engineering materials on some of the issues will make your head spin for days - whole books on the perfect lubricant for a linear bearing for instance...

Using advanced "feed forward" technology, you could monitor elasticity and viscosity in the melt chamber, laser measure nozzle position vs. command, dynamically sense and damp rod ring modes and make some beautiful prints - but some of the sensors cost as much as the whole machine and you still have to write software that "knows everything" and then makes decisions - potentially on the fly while another processor checks that the decisions are still "safe" for man and machine - I've worked on systems like that - its fun - as long as I'm being paid and not the one paying!

I will ALWAYS welcome improvements and advances (thats part of what makes this fun) but until I win a large lottery, they have to be cost effective advances and steps.

ABH
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:31 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby ABH » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:16 am

MDVolle, I agree, it is not the way forward to add more complexity on printer level.
I think improvements in this field could come from adding more intelligence to the stepper motor driver. The Trinamic driver already measures back-EMF for Stealth Mode control. This measurement should contain information of speed and position. Adding further intelligence (= processing power) in the driver might make it possible to process this information in algorithms and modify the coil excitation accordingly, in order to minimize velocity variations, or expressed in another way, in order to keep the rotation lag constant across the electrical full-step cycle.

Vice Chief
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:04 am
Contact:

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vice Chief » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:10 pm

Another possibility would be to identify whether the ringing is primarily happening at some fundamental frequency, and make a passive damper centered on that frequency. I used to know someone who engineered viscoelastic dampers for space applications, it was one of the last-ditch ways to reduce vibration when other methods were not available.

It seems possible to instrument the extruder head with an accelerometer (or something else) and look at the plots in frequency space. You could get a pretty good idea of the spectral distribution of ringing pretty fast, I think. If there was a huge spike somewhere, you could try to damp that out and see if ringing decreased.

Is anyone aware of a part designed to induce ringing? Could be a good place to start.

User avatar
walshlg
Posts: 1342
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby walshlg » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:16 am

just saw a vague article about a "breakthrough" where some professor had a way to modify the g-code to reduce ringing. As best I can tell this was done on first principles. Seems to me you could add an accelerometer and do this heurisitcly , running a pid type tuning of the carriage-movement/ acceleration.

Vice Chief
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:04 am
Contact:

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vice Chief » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:51 pm

Here's a little more detail on that topic. https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/cut ... an-123158/

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby DerRad1ra » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:21 am

Hi guys iam also on that Polyflex .. I have 2 Questions

The First is how can i Change the Load Temp to 230 Degrees?

And the second one is, is it possible to lower only the feedrate of my right extruder where i Print Polyflex , couse it buckels after a while and i guess the feedrate is to high and my Material cant go fast enought out of my nozzle..

And i use the Bondtech extruder by the way

Thank you and habe a nice day.

Tinkerer
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:14 am

Change the LoadTemp on the screen where the load button is.
There are arrows above and below the temperature set - pressing them changes the load temp in 5°C-steps.

If the flex gets stuck in the extruder, try loosening the screw which presses the lever against the extruder.
(the spring loaded screw on the side of the extruder, there is one for each side).

If these are srewed in too much, it deforms the filament which then gets stuck.

Please try that first. I doubt it's a problem w. the flowrate (i do print PolyFlex with the bondtech as well at 100%FR).

User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 2603
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:59 am

Currently on screen, the feedrate is overall speed which cannot be divided to be different nozzle.
But with new version of ideaMaker, you can set different setting group for models for different nozzle and change the speed values you want to change.

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby DerRad1ra » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:19 am

Tinkerer thx for ur answer, i tried thies severall times but i have always a Stock after a short time tthe Problem is Not the screw pressure it's more the outcoming i use a 0.4 Nozzle temp 295 bc over this temp the Polyflex Peaks out of my nozzle like water and lay on my Pla Lasers where it shouldent be

@vicky.

Yeah i separate my Modell in groups it is a 2 k Print Pla and Polyflex.. So i can only reduce the feedrate for booth extruders Not separated? I guess it would make a Problem on the Pla if i reduce the feedrate....

rorellana
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:17 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby rorellana » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:06 pm

Hello Jetguy,
I need your help with bondtech and polyflex, ninjaflex. I saw your comments regarding bondtech in a forum and you had printed ninjaflex. Can you tell me if bondtech is an extruder that was made to solve problems with printing with ninjaflex. I saw a print you did with ninjaflex and it looked great.
Can you let me know if bondtech is the best option to print ninjaflex. Also, can you provide me the settings for ninjaflex.
I have a sample of the polyflex filament that I want to try out can you also tell me the best setting you use for the polyflex.

Thanks in advance for your help.

User avatar
Vicky@Raise3D
Posts: 2603
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:41 am

DerRad1ra wrote:@vicky.

Yeah i separate my Modell in groups it is a 2 k Print Pla and Polyflex.. So i can only reduce the feedrate for booth extruders Not separated? I guess it would make a Problem on the Pla if i reduce the feedrate....


If your want to adjust feedrate on touchscreen, yes, it is an overall speed percentage. So both extruders' printing and moving speed will be increase or decrease together.
If the set temperature is not too high, normally PLA won't have too much problem with a little lower speed, maybe some ooze or strings, but won't affect too much.

Tinkerer
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:57 am

DerRad1ra wrote:...i use a 0.4 Nozzle temp 295 bc over this temp the Polyflex Peaks out of my nozzle like water...


Polyflex @ 295°C?

I can imagine that this will leak like water.
I use 235°C for that.
Feeding of the PolyFlex is good since I use the Bontech-Feeder.
With the original Feeder I did have some issues with Polyflex as well.

Rogman
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:37 pm

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Rogman » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:44 pm

I have used a few rolls of the MakerFlex and it works well. This is printed at normal speeds (60mm/sec) and a nozzle temp of 210c bed temp of 70c and BondTech DualDirect drive extruder. :geek: Printed on glass with Purple glue stick.
Image
Image

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby DerRad1ra » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Hi Guys,

i fixed my issue with the Polyflex i guess it was just the Temperature and some Printing Speed settings.

Here is my Dual Pla Polyflex Profile..
Attachments
PolyFlex with Pla.zip
(4.48 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

User avatar
Michael.P@Raise3D
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:51 pm
Location: Costa Mesa
Contact:

Re: Polymaker PolyFlex - printable? How?

Postby Michael.P@Raise3D » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:08 pm

DerRad1ra wrote:Hi Guys,

i fixed my issue with the Polyflex i guess it was just the Temperature and some Printing Speed settings.

Here is my Dual Pla Polyflex Profile..


Its great to hear you got the issue resolved, keep us updated with how your prints turn out.
Michael Petitclerc, Technician
Tel: +888 963 9028
Web: http://www.raise3d.com


Return to “Printing Settings”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests