0.8 Nozzle

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Monty
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Anyone used a 0.8 nozzle and S3D ?

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:19 pm

How to set a nozzle in S3D:
The suggested start point is enter the nozzle diameter and ALSO specify the identical extrusion width. Using auto for extrusion width often results in gaps in the extrusion of flat infill roofs and floors.
Then calibrate extrusion volume using filament diameter using actual measured filament diameter and adjust "extrusion multiplier as your tuning value for extrusion volume.
tune8nozzle.jpg

tune8nozzle2.jpg

Monty
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:53 pm

Yer thats not the problem. The raft is :) It's coming out at 2mm and not bonding. The first layer goes down fine but the second layer doesn't stick at all and coils up


2017-02-24 12.02.13.jpg

Monty
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:19 pm

Also I sem to be geting a rasping noise when it's doing infill and thats not sticking. Maybe retraction settings ? Vid to follow after some food :)

Monty
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:34 pm

S3D

2017-02-25 19.50.57.jpg

Monty
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:36 pm

same settings in Ideamaker and it's not so bad.

2017-02-25 20.34.48.jpg

Monty
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:04 am

I prints OK except infill

vase purple.jpg

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Again, back to basics. After setting extrusion width, entering your actual measured filament diameter did you then print the extrusion volume test by printing a 100% infill cube before attempting to print actual objects?

In order for a slicer to work, you have to enter the following variables.
layer height
extrusion width
filament actual diameter

From those values, any given segment is a cylinder of a known length, known height, and known width. That form a 3D "noodle" of hot filament that is slightly compressed from round as it exits the round nozzle and is smashed oval to have more contact to the previous layer. Point being, again, if you have a cylinder of known dimensions then it represents a volume. At the same time, you enter the actual measured incoming filament diameter into the extruder and tell the slicer that value. Why? Because the filament is now another cylinder of infinite length. The idea is the reverse math is used, so if a segment consumes X volume of plastic to make it, and we know the cross section area of the raw filament, we then know how much linear distance of filament to make that volume.

All this relies on 2 huge assumptions. #1 the user accurately measured the real currently being used filament diameter and entered it into the slicer, and the other giant assumption is the extruder feeder is actually moving the commanded distance of real filament and not slipping, grinding, or skipping steps.

Another huge factor here is a larger hot noodle of plastic takes longer to cool and solidify. So not only are we melting more filament, but we have to cool more filament to actually "print" and not have the hot plastic just dragged around.

If all you did was slap a big fat nozzle on, change the extrusion width, and not actually tune extrusion multiplier to correct for errors in filament diameter and steps per mm in the firmware, or your extruder is slipping or skipping- and we didn't also slow down the feed rates knowing that in the same linear distance over time (AKA speed AKA feed rate)then yes, you could push your extruder to the point where it is massively under extruding by either grinding or skipping steps.

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:40 pm

The fact the single wall vase works- that is a slowed down perimeter setting, and infill fails- that is a raw printing feed rate value and probably causing your extruder to grind and skip steps.

In other words, the slicer isn't "wrong". You are telling the machine the correct volume of plastic- however, the speed is exceeding your printers reliable margins to be able to push the filament through the nozzle.


#1 test your extruder feeder. Simply use the load filament menu on the LCD, let it begin extruding filament, and then by hand by gripping the filament going into the extruder at the top stop the filament with your fingers while the motor is still pulling. The drive gear cannot slip or grind the filament. You must be able to do this and have the motor skip steps (an obvious audible thumping or clicking sound). You should be able to identify that sound from across the room as a 3D printer owner and operator. If you cannot pass this test without slipping and grinding- then you must, adjust or upgrade your feeder. Because anything less than perfect grip, you are wasting your time. Once it grinds, the filament is no longer pressed into the drive gear and like a tire digging a hole into the mud and getting stuck- that's what happens to a slipping extruder and it cannot self recover. At least if it has perfect grip- once the over pressure is relieved, the extruder will self recover and extrude again.

#2 is that during a print, you should be listening for an mindful of the sounds of that extruder skipping steps. If you hear it, something is wrong. That means that those skipped steps represent plastic that never made it into your print.

This is why effort has been put into alternate "upgrade" feeders other than the stock feeder. Yes, it works from the factory, and yes, it is a nice milled aluminum piece, but there is room for improvement when pushing the limits of extrusion rates and volume. And you have to adjust it to match your filament diameter. Too tight of a pinch- the extra drag of deforming the filament against the gear is less push into the hot nozzle. Too little pressure or distance of the V-groove bearing to the drive gear and the filament just slips and grinds.

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:49 pm

What I'm trying to share is valuable no matter what nozzle size is used.
You have to really understand all of these to "master" the basics of 3D printing extrusion. Note, this just covers extrusion- 3D printing is even more complex in that the extruded plastic must maintain the shape and bond to previous layers and is not covered in this scope.

Understand how a slicer takes an STL and generates the lines of gcode and what those lines of gcode mean from a command standpoint.

Understand how the key values- extrusion width, layer height, and filament diameter relate to the math in how E distance gcode values are created.

Understand the fine adjustment or tuning value to E length for compensating for errors in measuring filament diameter, errors in how your extruder and firmware pushes an actual distance of raw filament into the nozzle.

Understand the 100% infill 20mm test cube calibration and why that works to specifically test the values and how tuning extrusion multiplier affects the final output

Understand that giant assumption that the extruder is told to push a distance of filament. Should speed, drag from the spool, drag from filament guide tube, the drive gear to v-groove not being adjusted, the motor skipping steps- these all cause the extruder to fail to push the commanded distance and thus volume of plastic that should be in your print.

Understand how to test your extruder feeder, how to ensure it grips VS grinding. Most importantly, how to diagnose and listen for the telltale skipping of steps.

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:55 pm

Much of the above was covered in this previous post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=278&p=4220&hilit=sailfish#p2620

In addition that contains very specific information on how to perform the 100% infill test calibration.

I would perform the extrude grip test first before I even tried to calibrate anything. If the extruder isn't dead on reliable grip- the calibration is a lost cause.

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:20 pm

Feed rates are largely controlled in S3D on the "Other" tab of the profile.
The default printing speed is used for all layers where another setting doesn't kick in and slow it up or down.
This means infill rate is = "Default Printing Speed"
Perimeter shells (the single walled vase) and the outer shell of most prints is intentionally printed slower. This is "Outline Underspeed" and as you can see is 50% of the default speed, in this case, 60mm/s times 50% = 30mm/s

So we know your extruder can do 30mm/s with the 0.8mm nozzle based on your result of the single walled vase being a success, while the infill of a normal print failed miserably. This means that your extruder fails to push filament reliably above 30mm/s, now how far above is a million dollar question.

Finally, Roofs and Floors are the big flat layers of infill on objects. This is a specific solid layer VS the core infill that is patterned in the middle of the object. This is "Solid infill Underspeed" and as the name implies, slower than normal infill. It's done at 80%.

Also notice that the first layer speed multiplier is on the layer tab.
Attachments
S3D feed rate page.jpg
S3D feed rate layer page.jpg

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:24 pm

The first layer goes down fine but the second layer doesn't stick at all and coils up


Again, first layer speed is slow so that the hot plastic sticks and melts into the base layer for the print to stick to the build plate. That setting is on the layer tab. You take the default printing speed times that multiplier= actual value used. If that layer speed worked- then that is roughly your maximum speed you can use for other parts of the print.

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:35 pm

Also I sem to be geting a rasping noise when it's doing infill and thats not sticking


That rasping sound is likely the extruder motor skipping steps- and like I said before a skill that is required to hear and diagnose that sound and know what it means. Simply put, either your hot end is jammed, you exceed the speed at which filament can push through the nozzle, or your nozzle is too close to the build surface on first layer and thus backpressure exceeds what the motor can push. It's a pretty simple decision tree.

Am I printing first layer at the time of hearing this rasping sound?
Yes- maybe the Z gap or leveling is wrong
NO- you have one of the other problems and this is not z-gap or leveling

Did first layer print slowly and no rasping, but then second layer speeds up and moves faster and I hear rasping?
Yes- Probably need to lower the feed rate for normal layers (second layer is the first normal layer)
No- If this still flat infill area like a roof or floor? If so, that speed is controlled by the solid infill layer multiplier and could be slower. Make a note of this speed that worked- again no rasping sound of skipping steps

Do other parts of a given layer extrude without rasping- but only a specific section of the layer is making the sound, and this is not a roof or floor, just normal perimeter and infill?
Yes- again, infill speed is controlled by the global "Default Printing Speed" variable in S3D, and other layers are a slower percentage of this master rate.

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:42 pm

Also, what I'm trying to get folks to understand is how to approach this entire thing.

You blatantly asked for settings from someone using a 0.8mm nozzle and S3D slicer. In your head, that makes perfect sense, setting should work. Reality is much, much different. While some settings and formulas work- that's why we can share them as formulas, we still have the massive assumption that the printer faithfully follows and executes the gcode including commanded extrusion distance and resulting volume.

There are a million reasons why that might vary from one printer to another the maximum reliable feed rate and sustained rates. Because those can also be 2 different values. You might be able to extrude faster for a fraction of a second, but sustained several seconds of extruding at that rate may hit the limits of your motor and stepper driver current setting. And given I just discovered that new machines are using different motors than pervious models, and while the data sheet says they are similar specs, I'm finding real world hardware settings and recommendations are very different.
So a profile that might work for one person is not any guarantee that it works on your printer with your filament and setup.

Again, for example, minimum variables I have right now between the 3 machines I own. #1 different motor between my latest N2Plus and my previous N2 and N1. I also installed the Bondtech upgrade extruder on my N1 and N2, and adjusted the stepper drivers to prevent overheating the motors. Then on my N2Plus, I lowered the stepper driver current as well to prevent excessive motor heat from softening the filament in the feed path (so it's different than a stock out of the box machine that ships today). Then are you using the stock brass nozzle or a coated upgrade nozzle. What specifics of torque and sealing and other factors when installing that nozzle? Has the nozzle tip ever been damaged? Specifics of temps used and the exact filament brand, let alone variation from one roll to the next or evne things like colors that react differently. Then you also have the filament diameter variation and how that drags through the guide tubes and filament path. And if using the stock extruder feeder, the exact gear and adjustment of the distance to the v-groove bearing. A fraction of a mm could make all the difference between the max reliable feedrate of any 2 printers. Even ambient temp and humidity could change those values.

Monty
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Monty » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:20 pm

One 20mm cube coming out at x20.02 x y20.02 x z19.98


cube.jpg

Jetguy
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Re: 0.8 Nozzle

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:37 pm

Just a reminder about that test, you absolutely do not measure that cube for dimensions as a requirement of that test. That's not what this is about. You need to observe it while printing and see if the nozzle is plowing through the previous layers making rows and furrows like a field. Is the top flat visually? Then you adjust the extrusion multiplier to prevent plowing and over extrusion. If you find it under extruding, it all depends on how much. If a lot and corrections to the multiplier cannot fix it- that's the extruder not keeping up.

Again, I'm glad that cube came out great and the measurements look great- really they do- but as moving forward to correct the problem-what did we learn or change?

Is that 100% infill, what speeds and feeds?
Because you have to know those numbers to be able to produce a profile for a much larger part and solve your problem while creating a custom profile that matches the capabilities of your exact printer.


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