Cannot get a good print

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kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:35 pm

I am new to the 3d printing world as a user. I have been reading up on it for a long time. I just recently took the plunge and bought the Raise 3d N2 printer. This was so much larger in size than expected when it showed up.

I validated my Z axis using the measure tool and it is at the correct height.

Issues I have been encountering and no matter the research online I cannot resolve all of them. I have started to print test objects only until I get a clean print as everything else I have tried has ended up in failure.

1. The raft initially would come loose and raising the temp of the bed to 50-60 solved that issue. Now I have a lot of trouble getting the printed object/raft off the print bed once the job is complete. I am using the tools that came with the printer. I even scratched my build plate earlier.

2. Prints do not come out clear. They appear lumpy/droopy and not fine.

3. Current print test has been the 3D Benchy boat.

I use the Ideamaker slicer that came with the system. I have tweaked all settings to reduce/increase speed, increase/decrease extruder temps, layer height (.2 - .06), retraction speed and amount, ZHop, and anything else I could find. I am using the PLA that shipped with the printer too.

The prints below are better than when i started, but they all have issues. Anything else outside of this comes out bad. Even something as simple as a cube.

Image of prints
IMG_0196.JPG

IMG_0192.JPG


I have dleeted my custom slicer settings as they have not been working and went back to the three default Raise 3d Hotend 2 templates. I assume that I correctly have the Hotend 2 version of this printer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really want to start deigning and printing. Also with most solutions stating to slow down the print. What is the benefit of having a printer that can print at 150mm if it is best to print at 50mm or slower?

Leo

DeftCAD
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby DeftCAD » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:29 pm

This won't cure all your issues, but re. detaching prints... I've been using 3D printers for a few years and have tried a few build surfaces. The one I've settled with is a glass bed and 3DLAC spray. I never use a raft and prints almost never lift. Adhesion with even a modest area touching the bed is so hard that on completion I think I would damage the model before it detached, but after a few minutes cooling they just let go with a satisfying 'click'.

A few thoughts:

1. It sounds like you've done your homework so I'm just asking: if you're new to it are you confident that the bed gap is right? In my experience it needs to be 'just so' with all printers - a little resistance on the feeler gauge, but not a lot. This explanation in itself is vague and hard to quantify... Make sure the feeler gauge is quite flat to the bed as you do it, or friction from the angle will mislead you.
2. Are you allowing the bed to cool before removing the model? I've seen videos of people hacking at models as soon as they finish. In my experience, cool models are harder and as the bed material and build material cool at different rates, they release better. I leave mine probably 10min or more.
3. What sort of environment is the printer in? Ambient temperature? Are the doors open/lid off? I usually run closed doors and the top propped up using a 30cm ruler BUT I'm in the UK, so ambient is almost always <20°c and the printer is in a corner right next to two external walls and a window!
4. Make just one change at a time. I know this is laborious and time consuming, but it's the best way to fault find. On this note, I don't think Benchy is a good model to fault find with: I used to use it, but it takes hours to complete and the more testing features only appear higher up, so you wait ages to see results. See if you can download/model something with features that show lower down to speed up your testing.

Hopefully this is of some help. I don't have a fraction of the tech. knowledge that some of the others on here do, so perhaps others will have more suggestions.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:53 pm

I usually let the print stay for awhile before trying to get it off the plate. I have tried between immediate at completion through an hour or two. It just seems like the prints end up getting glued to the bed and are very difficult to pry off.

1. I believe the GAP is good. I read the instructions and forums online to find the little tool they give should have a small amount of resistance from the bed. I adjusted the Z axis screw and homed the Z axis multiple times. I placed the tool on the bed and pushed it horizontally beneath the nozzle and there is some resistance as I can feel it against the tool. I wondered what the little thing was for when I unpacked it. I might have it to close and can try increasing the GAP a screw turn and see if that helps.

2. I have tried immediately and also have waited various amounts of time before attempting to remove the model. Minutes to even hours without much difference. Though I have noticed the models are much more sold the longer I wait.

3. My printer is against an outside wall and upstairs. I sit in here comfortably and do not have central heating or air. I just have a small electric heater in the room to take the chill out if it gets cold. The printer itself is contained on all sides and top. I read that heating/cooling issues can make prints fail, so I have left the doors shut and also the top lid on the printer. Should I remove the top cover? That is one thing I have not tried in all the changes.

4. I have been making one change at a time and then printing again. I have done this so many times I think I might be missing something and have now started reaching out for assistance. I have set everything back to default in my software and hardware. That way I have a level starting point again. I have tried multiple test objects. I have also tried a small cube that has 3 small holes that travel the length of the cube. I prints much faster than benchy yet it also has issues with the circle portion that goes through the cube. I have tried the do not cross gaps and all kinds of settings with retractions to make them smooth and round.

I have also tried a bridge test that has two small towers and a non-supported bridge that runs between them. The bridge and towers complete. The bridge on the underside is extremely stringy and not a solid piece as depicted in other final results.

Thank you for your information. I will check my Z GAP and also try removing the lid to see if that helps.

Timber Haint
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby Timber Haint » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:09 pm

1) I've found the best settings that work for me with the Raise3d premium PLA (R3DPPLA) are a nozzle of 210 deg. and a bed of 70 deg.. These are the only settings I change on the V2 hotend PLA setting in ideaMaker. When I use these settings with the R3D Prem. PLA I have no issues with prints coming loose and it still gives me good print quality.

Clean your build surface. I'm going to make a post about it later, but go to your local grocery/hardware store and get some AJAX or Comet and give your build surfaces a good cleaning (both the glass and the buildtak) and thorough rinsing. I thoroughly dry it off, put it back in the machine, and let it sit at 100 deg. for about 5 minutes to burn off any residual water. Dust and any extraneous particles will vastly effect your filaments ability to stick. Next to sand/bead blasting (which we're not going to do) it's the best way to clean a surface. It's better than isopropyl alcohol, de-greaser, or acetone. The grit and chemical reaction do an amazing job of cleaning surfaces. This has been proven many times and can be verified by the water sheeting test. You'd be amazed how well filament sticks to a clean glass surface. I will make a new post about this later.

As for removing your prints - as DeftCAD mentioned, letting it completely cool is probably the best way and my prints always come off easily if I let it cool. I don't use the tool that came with the machine. I damaged my buildtak with it and have since switched to a much thinner "putty knife" (it's not a knife). I place it as perpendicular to the bed surface as possible with the edge as close to the intersection of the bed and the piece. I then LIGHTLY tap the back of the putty knife it with a hammer and it pops the piece right off with no damage to the build surface OR the piece. I can post pictures about this tonight if you'd like.

2) For me the R3DPPLA seems to have a little more issues with overhangs than say the Hatchbox PLA. My Hatchbox PLA completely amazes me at it's ability to create overhangs. You can see some in my previous posts. I'd suggest spending a little money and getting some Hatchbox PLA (the green is the only one I've used so far). I'm sure there are some other brands that are just as good, but this one works very well for me.

3) Never printed the benchy boat, but maybe I'll give it a try.

zemlin
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby zemlin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 am

On top of all the above comments, have patience. I've been at this for 2 years now and I'm still getting better with every step. It's not a plug-n-play process, and it will take time for you to figure out what works best for you.

Also, regarding speed - everything is a trade-off. I sometimes print fast when getting the plastic down is more important than making it pretty - but generally I care about appearance and integrity, so I print slower. My car is capable of hitting 125 MPH (so I've been told). That's not the optimal speed for most of my driving.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:55 am

Timber Haint wrote:1) I've found the best settings that work for me with the Raise3d premium PLA (R3DPPLA) are a nozzle of 210 deg. and a bed of 70 deg.. These are the only settings I change on the V2 hotend PLA setting in ideaMaker. When I use these settings with the R3D Prem. PLA I have no issues with prints coming loose and it still gives me good print quality.

Clean your build surface. I'm going to make a post about it later, but go to your local grocery/hardware store and get some AJAX or Comet and give your build surfaces a good cleaning (both the glass and the buildtak) and thorough rinsing. I thoroughly dry it off, put it back in the machine, and let it sit at 100 deg. for about 5 minutes to burn off any residual water. Dust and any extraneous particles will vastly effect your filaments ability to stick. Next to sand/bead blasting (which we're not going to do) it's the best way to clean a surface. It's better than isopropyl alcohol, de-greaser, or acetone. The grit and chemical reaction do an amazing job of cleaning surfaces. This has been proven many times and can be verified by the water sheeting test. You'd be amazed how well filament sticks to a clean glass surface. I will make a new post about this later.

As for removing your prints - as DeftCAD mentioned, letting it completely cool is probably the best way and my prints always come off easily if I let it cool. I don't use the tool that came with the machine. I damaged my buildtak with it and have since switched to a much thinner "putty knife" (it's not a knife). I place it as perpendicular to the bed surface as possible with the edge as close to the intersection of the bed and the piece. I then LIGHTLY tap the back of the putty knife it with a hammer and it pops the piece right off with no damage to the build surface OR the piece. I can post pictures about this tonight if you'd like.

2) For me the R3DPPLA seems to have a little more issues with overhangs than say the Hatchbox PLA. My Hatchbox PLA completely amazes me at it's ability to create overhangs. You can see some in my previous posts. I'd suggest spending a little money and getting some Hatchbox PLA (the green is the only one I've used so far). I'm sure there are some other brands that are just as good, but this one works very well for me.

3) Never printed the benchy boat, but maybe I'll give it a try.


Thank you for the response. I have been out of town for a couple weeks and will try this when I get home. The printer isn’t exactly portable. Lol

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:58 am

zemlin wrote:On top of all the above comments, have patience. I've been at this for 2 years now and I'm still getting better with every step. It's not a plug-n-play process, and it will take time for you to figure out what works best for you.

Also, regarding speed - everything is a trade-off. I sometimes print fast when getting the plastic down is more important than making it pretty - but generally I care about appearance and integrity, so I print slower. My car is capable of hitting 125 MPH (so I've been told). That's not the optimal speed for most of my driving.



So true. I have been working on this for weeks with no success on easy or difficult prints. Trying to dial it in closer on a 1-4 hour print before trying anymore 10+ hour prints. Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

zemlin
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby zemlin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:42 am

kazaar13 wrote:Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

If your parts are less than 25mm wide you might be able to run both barrels at the same time creating duplicate parts. I've never tried that. You need to get good at running a single nozzle first though. There are printers that have each extruder on an independent drive which allows them to print two parts at the same time.

Once you get a handle on the process you can take steps to speed it up in areas that are less critical. I got my first RAISE printer in October and just picked up a second. I have modified them both with the lighter weight Bondtech extruder, different stepper drivers, and dampers on the XY steppers. All these mods are to allow me to push the speeds and accelerations up. I didn't have a lot of time to mess with that on the first printer because it was busy printing most of the time. Now with a second printer I have more freedom to test when the workload is a little lower. Last week I was able to tweak perimeter, infill, and support acceleration/jerk settings and cut 7 hours out of a 32 hour print while improving the final part appearance. My next step will be to push the print speed up from 60 mm/s to maybe 75 or 90 mm/s and then dial down the perimeter acceleration and jerk settings to maintain the surface finish. If I'm successful, this should give another reduction in print time.

It all takes time to learn ... one step at a time.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:17 pm

zemlin wrote:
kazaar13 wrote:Was hoping the speed and dual extrusion would speed up the process. Alas it must just be slow and steady. Have the slow trying to find the steady.

If your parts are less than 25mm wide you might be able to run both barrels at the same time creating duplicate parts. I've never tried that. You need to get good at running a single nozzle first though. There are printers that have each extruder on an independent drive which allows them to print two parts at the same time.

Once you get a handle on the process you can take steps to speed it up in areas that are less critical. I got my first RAISE printer in October and just picked up a second. I have modified them both with the lighter weight Bondtech extruder, different stepper drivers, and dampers on the XY steppers. All these mods are to allow me to push the speeds and accelerations up. I didn't have a lot of time to mess with that on the first printer because it was busy printing most of the time. Now with a second printer I have more freedom to test when the workload is a little lower. Last week I was able to tweak perimeter, infill, and support acceleration/jerk settings and cut 7 hours out of a 32 hour print while improving the final part appearance. My next step will be to push the print speed up from 60 mm/s to maybe 75 or 90 mm/s and then dial down the perimeter acceleration and jerk settings to maintain the surface finish. If I'm successful, this should give another reduction in print time.

It all takes time to learn ... one step at a time.


What are your printer settings for single nozzle? I tried so many with some being much worse, but very few changes improved the prints. When I get home I am going to try the couple of changes mentioned above. The slightly lower nozzle temp is the one change that had a positive change. I had increased bed temp in small jumps but have not tried 70.

I sm just hoping their isn’t a hardware defect giving me the printer grief.

I tried a small bridge test piece and the towers look good and the circle on top is good. The bridge itself was very stringy on the bottom/

zemlin
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby zemlin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:09 pm

kazaar13 wrote:What are your printer settings for single nozzle? I tried so many with some being much worse, but very few changes improved the prints. When I get home I am going to try the couple of changes mentioned above. The slightly lower nozzle temp is the one change that had a positive change. I had increased bed temp in small jumps but have not tried 70.

I sm just hoping their isn’t a hardware defect giving me the printer grief.

I tried a small bridge test piece and the towers look good and the circle on top is good. The bridge itself was very stringy on the bottom/

I don't print PLA and I don't use IdeaMaker, so not sure my info would do you much good.
Bridging can be tricky - stringy underside is common. I normally use support rather than bridging any significant distance.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:38 pm

Update to my prints. I am back home now and able to test again. I reset everything to default and started with a simple 40mm cube. This way I can dial in the basics before moving forward. I reduced the cube to 20mm so it would finish sooner and both cubes have the same issue with the first few layers curling upwards after it prints for awhile.

I set the nozzle to 210 and the print bed to 60. When I tried 50 it popped off and started stringing everywhere. The print looks good except I now see curling on the first few layers. Reading some forums it appears I may want to turn my fan off for the first 1-2 layers. I set those options, but the fan never stops. I will read further and then post another update.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:55 am

How was the result with 60C bed temperature?
If you machine is a dual-extruder one, you cannot turn the cooling fans off. Both fans are constant-on for providing proper cooling for heat sink of both nozzles. On the downward fan on single-extruder machine can be controlled by code.
Would more recommend you check the distance between nozzle and build surface. If it's too far, it will affect adhesion.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:24 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:How was the result with 60C bed temperature?
If you machine is a dual-extruder one, you cannot turn the cooling fans off. Both fans are constant-on for providing proper cooling for heat sink of both nozzles. On the downward fan on single-extruder machine can be controlled by code.
Would more recommend you check the distance between nozzle and build surface. If it's too far, it will affect adhesion.


The prints are still curling and pulling from the bed. I did find out the fans are always on after I posted my last response. I have also tried using a Brim and Skirt without any additional success. I initially had better success using a raft, but it is very difficult to remove the raft after the print has finished. I have waited about 10-15 minutes after the job to see if it helps.

I have checked the Z value and adjusted the screw on the left side of the door. Both nozzles have just a slight resistance when I slide the gap tool under each nozzle.

My last two attempts of printing with either nozzle ended up with a big clogged mess attached to either print head. I am heating it up not so I can have to run some material through to make sure it is not clogged.

I understand that these printers are not plug and play and require some fine tuning, but I would expect more success than I have been able to get from it. Thank you for your help and I will continue to post.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 pm

I ran the filament through both nozzles and removed any excess. No material is sticking to the nozzles and they come out cleanly.

I removed all of my templates and copied the standard template and made two changes from the default.
Changes:
Bed Temp 60
Left Nozzle 210

I am now trying to print a basic 40mm cube from the left nozzle. Print time is listed at 1.5 hours. I have attached the .stl file and zip of my template settings. Once this is working correctly I will try a slightly more complex model.
Attachments
Standard 210-60-export.zip
Exported template and zipped for review
(7.2 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
40mmcube.stl
40mm test cube basic
(684 Bytes) Downloaded 15 times

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:00 pm

The print has finished and I have attached a picture.
IMG_0312.JPG
40mm cube


In the picture the top, bottom and corners of the cube are not uniform or squared. The rest of the cube has appeared to print well.

DS2017
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby DS2017 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Show us pictures of how your raft and brim looks too. Wondering if they are too squished.
Have you tried any other filament?
What is your filament flowrate setting?
What speed are you printing your shells at?

Try this cube for fast calibration tests; it's fast and got complex geometry
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1278865

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:39 am

DS2017 wrote:Show us pictures of how your raft and brim looks too. Wondering if they are too squished.
Have you tried any other filament?
What is your filament flowrate setting?
What speed are you printing your shells at?

Try this cube for fast calibration tests; it's fast and got complex geometry
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1278865



I downloaded the cube and will try it tomorrow. I will attach pictures of my results.
I only have the filament that was sent with the printer. I was sent two spools of PLA and they print the exact same. I have read that filament can make a big difference.
PLA is changing the calibration to 94 for flowrate. Once I print the object I will post pictures with all settings.

kazaar13
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby kazaar13 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:17 pm

DS2017 wrote:Show us pictures of how your raft and brim looks too. Wondering if they are too squished.
Have you tried any other filament?
What is your filament flowrate setting?
What speed are you printing your shells at?

Try this cube for fast calibration tests; it's fast and got complex geometry
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1278865


IMG_0318.JPG

IMG_0317.JPG

IMG_0315.JPG


Results of the print cube. As you can see it isn't very smooth. I did not print any shells with the print or a raft.

Attached my slicing settings.
Attachments
HQ 210-70-50sLayer-15Bridge-10Infill-1.5Retraction-export.bin.zip
(7.52 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

DS2017
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby DS2017 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:30 pm

kazaar13 wrote:IMG_0315.JPG
IMG_0317.JPG
IMG_0318.JPG

Results of the print cube. As you can see it isn't very smooth. I did not print any shells with the print or a raft.

Attached my slicing settings.


What do you mean no shells?
I think ideamaker defaults to minimum 1 shell.
Try printing with 2 shells. Most people print with at least 2 shells.
Also reduce outershell speed down to 15mm/s

What are your filament settings under Printer > Filament Settings?

Although unlikely, the filament might be old/bad.
Try HatchBox PLA White. It's one of the easiest PLA to work with.

Also attach the gcode file. Not sure what you attached. Cant open it.

zemlin
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Cannot get a good print

Postby zemlin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:54 pm

DS2017 wrote:Also attach the gcode file. Not sure what you attached. Cant open it.

It's not GCODE, it's a print settings template from IM. You can import it and see the settings. I didn't see anything out of line. I've printed that red material without issue.

That said, a .1mm layer with a .4mm nozzle can be a bit thin for starting out. Do you get any different results with a .2mm layer, besides cutting the print time in half?

I was testing some nylons last week and they were all stringy at .15mm layers with a .4mm nozzle. .2 printed clean. I would not expect an issue with PLA, but since you're having problems ...


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