Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

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Casale8
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Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Casale8 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:49 pm

I have read and keep reading threads about modifying a Printer (not just Raise3D), and then notice in the same token that the same folks complain about the printer not working as expected. Aside from the observed (on the forum) very rare faulty printer I've seen users have, I've nothing but compliments for Raise 3D's printer.

This 3D Printer is not expensive by comparison to many and produces quality prints - out of the box. Yes we need to finagle settings per different material, but that should be expected. I've not had any major issues with the printer and am printing for Aerospace Prod/Rapid Proto/R&D applications. For less than 4000 I have been able to save my company 1000's in the first months of owning it. The price of he printer filament from Raise3D is more than fair for the quality of the prints.

If I wanted to modify the 3D Printer and expect a company to deal with my mod's I would have designed and built one myself. They're really not super complicated. That's not the business I'm in.

So kudo's to Raise3D for putting up with complaints all the while affected by user mod's.
Last edited by Casale8 on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Michael.P@Raise3D
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Michael.P@Raise3D » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:38 pm

On behalf of Raise3D I will accept your complements. Lets not turn on those who have issues but understand where they are coming from. We understand that some people will have different configurations and sometimes there is little we can do but give advise and hope for the best. At the end of the day all of our goal's are the same, so we need to maintain mutual respect regardless of a bad attitude in a heated moment or not.
Michael Petitclerc, Technician
Tel: +888 963 9028
Web: http://www.raise3d.com

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Casale8
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Casale8 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:11 pm

Right on. You are absolutely correct! I'm amused, I hope others take heed!

Thanks for your support!
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Billucas
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Billucas » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:42 pm

I support your comments.

Luc

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby DrewPetitclerc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:50 am

I choke back bile and force myself not to be a troll by calmly pushing myself away from the keyboard and remember one of the rules I've learned from over forty years in engineering and dealing with new grads in the business.
PEBKAC
Problem
Exist
Between
Keyboard
And
Chair

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All around nice guy!
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EldRick
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby EldRick » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:34 am

Casale8: you don't seem to understand the whole 3D printing mythos.
It is traditional to use any 3D printer to print new "upgraded" parts for itself.
It's not like toasters or shoes, one is expected to modify the printer to optimize it for the specific requirements for which it will be used, and the manufacturer is expected to support and learn from the mods that customers do to the product, and hopefully improve future versions as a result.

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Casale8
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Casale8 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 pm

EldRick wrote:Casale8: you don't seem to understand the whole 3D printing mythos.
It is traditional to use any 3D printer to print new "upgraded" parts for itself.


So if I take the pistons off a car and turn them in a lathe and they no longer work in said car it's okay to expect the manufacturer to fix the problem?

I get the "mythos," I get upgrading, I don't get the whole modifying your 3D printer and then complaining to the manufacturer that it doesn't work right.

Don't over-complicate the point of the thread and read the "So kudo's to Raise3D for putting up with complaints all the while affected by user mod's."
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:02 pm

Nobody is milling off half the extruder head or other silly error and then asking for a new extruder head.

I read every post every day. That's how I know what I know about the mechanics, electronics, and much of the firmware and software for this printer. I've had one of the earliest first shipment of the Kickstarter units. I published schematics reverse engineered from the very circuit boards as shipped. I own all 3 models (N1, N2, and N2 Plus, N3 is experimental), I have spare control boards to modify firmware on and test on and have built experimental printers using Raise 3D parts to help push and see what we can do for the next design.
As such, I have not seen a single instance where a user caused modification then was followed with asking Raise 3D to support it.

What we have is a number of minor to major design or detail failures, we have firmware that has had minimal development resources by comparison. The couple of really active members of the group have done more improvement to the firmware than Raise 3D officially has in 3 years. The community is pushing back on Raise 3D on why improvements like new stepper drivers from the exact same company they already use are not being looked at. They ask why the stock extruder that has had complaints for going on 3 years has not yet been improved. They ask why when Raise 3D sourced different motors all the sudden we had complaints of overheating extruder feeders and then that required mods all because Raise 3D changed motor suppliers and didn't do the required testing and changing of settings?

Again, let's get right to your statement. "Raise3D for putting up with complaints all the while affected by user mod's."
What mod generated a user complaint that Raise 3D was then expected to fix?

I see a whole bunch of complaints for what Raise 3D is not doing and it's FORCING the users hands to do mods.

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:10 pm

In fact, even yourself, didn't you just change the drive gear on your extruder?
Should Raise 3D put up with you asking how to take the gear off because that's taking apart the printer and potentially voiding the warranty?
In that process, isn't it entirely possible that just by moving the wiring you could fall subject to the ribbon cable failure?
Food for thought.

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:30 pm

Again, please, I really want to get past the tone and get to the crux of this message so that we can understand.

What mod or mods are you talking about where a user intentionally modified the machine, and then comes back to Raise 3D and this forum and is complaining. I really want to know. It's not to make fun or other issue, I want to get down to the technical problem and solve it. Or just understand at least the point and thought process you are coming from.

Without an example, it's just a generic, "If you mod your printer, then that's a problem for Raise 3D and tech support" and a lot of us trying to save users from known issues and problems, honestly trying to make this as better place, we see that as direct insult.

So again, give examples of what you are talking about so we can better understand.

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Squenz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:04 am

Jetguy, please, calm down. Nobody is insulting you or the other knowledge heavy users, which give us all a better machine in the end. I for one am very happy to have you around here, i sure learned more from your contribution than i would have when asking the engineers. And i tend believe my personal knowledge about the systems involved in these machines is a bit above average. There's a lot to learn from you,n ot only because you have vast knowledge and expirience on these machines, but also are willing to use the keyboard so others can read, understand and learn from you and all the others who contribute.

I for one, i saw some postings in the past where i came to the feeling the user was trying something "out of the ordinary" or, at least, using a very uncommon way to get things done (to keep my wording nice) and now wants to find solutions coming from R3D. Very often, the text and data which was given left more guessing than anything else. Once or twice i wasn't even sure what the poster was trying to ask or meant to say. Therefore, when i first read this thread, i was smiling and thinking, Casale8 hit the nail right on the head with his statement.

It's not against those users, but using Ideamaker with another printer and whining about what's not working on their printer and such, does make you wonder in first place. This whole outfit, be it hardware or software is work in progress. I don't know how long Ultimaker and Cura are in the world, but R3D doesn't do a bad job in catching up. Sure, there's left room for improvement in a lot of aspects, some issues are definately to consider by YESTERDAY or at least RIGHT NOW, but in all all, i'm very happy with what i got for my money. These machines are expensive or cheap, that's for each and everyone to judge for himself, but overall, we got a fine beast.

Jetguy
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:51 am

Fair enough and now I see your frame of reference and the topics you are talking about.

EldRick
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby EldRick » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 am

Casaale8: I think you skipped by the part about "...the manufacturer is expected to support and learn from the mods that customers do to the product, and hopefully improve future versions as a result."

We're waiting a long time for some of those improvements.

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Casale8
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Casale8 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:04 pm

You guys are getting entirely too angry about this. Nothing to get hung up on.

Yes I did the mod I needed to. Anything I would do to the printer would be easily put back.
I was complimenting Raise.
For the cost of the printer (by comparing to other printers offerings), and the quality of what it produces, I have nothing to complain about.

Calm down y'all.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:10 pm

After going through this, the title is really why the anger happened.
You could thank Raise 3D that you are happy, and that would have been completely between you and Raise3D and honestly, I still, even for my harsh words, think that this is a good series of printer. I love this printer and just want to make it better.

It's this twist where the title says a totally different message.

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Re: Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:24 pm

Modifying Your 3D Printer and then Complaining that it doesn't Work Right is Ridiculous

Casale8 wrote:I have read and keep reading threads about modifying a Printer (not just Raise3D), and then notice in the same token that the same folks complain about the printer not working as expected.
..............
So kudo's to Raise3D for putting up with complaints all the while affected by user mod's.



Again, just pointing out it's huge slight to some other member and whatever massive grievance they caused by some unmentioned modification.

If you are going to point out a grievance, great, let's just get that out of the way. Forget names, I only care about the technical details.
My honest impression is, you may or may not understand that entire situation and there are 2 sides to every story. Rather than rag on someone for a modification you don't understand or don't think should be done, let's stop, take a good look on it and really get down to details.


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