Alternate support material suggestion

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Jetguy
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Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:43 pm

Interestingly enough an idea to use Polysmooth as a support material was presented to me by the folks at Mosaic for the Palette.
Unlike the way that PVA and Scaffold breaks down in a viscous goo, Polysmooth in alcohol breaks down much better and cleaner.

Polysmooth has less problems with moisture, less issues extruding and guide path, less trouble storing and so forth, and last, slightly better pricing per KG.
Here is a comparison of pricing and spool weight.
https://www.filastruder.com/collections ... d-filament is $59.99 for 500 grams to a high of about $73 for same 500 grams on Amazon $120-$146 per KG
Polysmooth is $39 per 750 gram both on Amazon and direct from Polymaker https://www.amazon.com/Polymaker-PolySm ... B06XTVVTKK makes it about $52 per KG
Just for additional comparison, eSUN PVA on amazon is $39 for 500g https://www.amazon.com/eSUN-1-75mm-fila ... B00MVIQASU $80 per KG
I found some Sainsmart brand also 500g for $36 making it $72 per KG
HIPS filament for ABS support is about $25 per KG but the D-limonene to dissolve it would be the costly part at roughly $59 per gallon. https://www.amazon.com/Bosh-Chemical-D- ... B01GUSBC0M

So on paper, yes, that does make Polysmooth a potentially viable cost and function alternative.
It's on my list to try to see how it breaks down and works as support material.
I just found this to be a train of thought I never went down before on my own, but after doing the math and having printed some Polysmooth in my Raise 3D printers, It seems like potentially a winner. I realize alcohol may vary by where you are for pricing, but for me, it's as low as $23 a gallon.

firesped
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby firesped » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:48 pm

I have been suggesting the idea myself but I haven't tried it yet. I haven't even opened the polysmooth I got from the kickstarter yet.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
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Jetguy
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:51 pm

I have a test now of some cut filament dropped into a 70% IPA glass seeing how well the dissolving process works. So far 20 minutes and the outside of the filament is basically washing away with the slightest rub. This might work well, more "real world" support testing to follow.

Jetguy
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:55 pm

Again, my thoughts are that I like that normal moisture from the air and storage issues are gone.
Polysmooth prints as well as any PLA I have tried in my N series printers (printed on both an N1, and N2Plus recently).
Cost is reasonable.
Solvent to wash is reasonable.

It's just that it's not marketed as support material- especially given Polymaker already has Polysupport. Technically, I think both cost the same per KG. So tough call on this being the end all be all, but that's why I presented it as a possible alternative.

firesped
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby firesped » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:34 am

the real questions is if Polycast can be made available to the general public and if it would be affordable. It is the same stuff as polysmooth but is designed for sale to industry making molded parts.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

Jetguy
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:41 am

Just as a follow on to this discussion, I'm printing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2460271 on my N2Plus using the Bondtech BMG dual extruder. I'm printing with Raise 3D Premium Black PLA in the left extruder and Polysmooth Clear in the right extruder as support material, sliced at 0.1mm layer height in Ideamaker. Couple of other notes about optimization. I specifically scaled the tiny print to be no more than 24.4 mm wide in X and rotated it slightly to make it actually even narrower. I did that because you can print without wipewalls and the nozzle spacing of 25mm in X means the drips never actually touch the model. Check out the slice preview showing the single shell and just how fragile this print is (the white is the print and the yellow is support). The print is only 30mm tall and roughly 24mm across.
torturecube slice.jpg
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NewbPilot
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby NewbPilot » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Jetguy wrote:Just as a follow on to this discussion, I'm printing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2460271 on my N2Plus using the Bondtech BMG dual extruder. I'm printing with Raise 3D Premium Black PLA in the left extruder and Polysmooth Clear in the right extruder as support material, sliced at 0.1mm layer height in Ideamaker. Couple of other notes about optimization. I specifically scaled the tiny print to be no more than 24.4 mm wide in X and rotated it slightly to make it actually even narrower. I did that because you can print without wipewalls and the nozzle spacing of 25mm in X means the drips never actually touch the model. Check out the slice preview showing the single shell and just how fragile this print is (the white is the print and the yellow is support). The print is only 30mm tall and roughly 24mm across.
torturecube slice.jpg


A month or so later - are you still using PolySmooth as support? My Palette+ should be here in 1-3 weeks (i'm like 27 on the list as of a week or two ago) and I really want to print some fun/funky items with support that allows for 0 gap and smooth lines.

Also, any updated S3D profiles? I just downloaded it, and am in the process of reading the book, so to speak. I need to learn it all, fast :)

Thanks for all you contribute!

Jetguy
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Jetguy » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:15 pm

I really don't print with support much and need to do more testing and pictures with the polysmooth as support.
I stupidly tried to print an insanely small object that was near impossible to print. It actually printed. That said, it was so fragile, breaking the piece during support removal was just going to happen no matter what I did. In fact, I dare say it was just a bad idea on that object.

The good is, given an overnight soak in alcohol, the polysmooth slowly drips off the part. I'm thinking a centrifuge or other method might be extremely effective. The other key note is elevate the part in the bath so that the polysmooth has someplace to drip down to completely off the part. Really I need to do more prints with this and I'm more convinced than ever this is a really cool idea that works better than PVA and is cost competitive. Also, I want to really make sure folks understand, the polysmooth does not dissolve. It simply becomes extremely soft and near liquid, but does not contaminate the entire bath of IPA and settles on the bottom as a puddle. This means it's easy to keep reusing the alcohol over and over and over- something that say HIPS and D-limonene cannot do without distillation to remove the HIPS.
It may not be for everyone and some countries I have heard that alcohol is hard to get or expensive and so might the polysmooth material also be hard to get or high import cost. But for me, this is a new tool in the toolbox and extremely effective.

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Brandon
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby Brandon » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:50 pm

@ jetguy - BTW it's pretty easy to make alcohol. It can be a useful hobby to. Provided it's legal where you reside.

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JohnSays
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby JohnSays » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:29 am

I just used d-limonene for the first time. I had (notice the past tense!) 10 ABS parts printed with eSun ABS yellow. They took two days to print. I soaked them in d-limonene to remove the support in the two o-ring grooves per part. The HIPS did dissolve, but the parts expanded and deformed to the point where they are no longer of any use. In all that I have read about using HIPS, not once did anyone bring up that the ABS is destroyed in the d-limonene. Seems like a pretty important point! How is it that d-limonene is considered suitable for use with ABS?

Would the polysmooth work with ABS? Could someone who has both give it a try for me?
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, and adjustable table

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JohnSays
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby JohnSays » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:44 pm

Sure got quiet. Any feedback guys?
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, and adjustable table

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walshlg
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby walshlg » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:54 pm

lol I am lurking

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JohnSays
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Re: Alternate support material suggestion

Postby JohnSays » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:51 am

Big help :)
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, and adjustable table


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